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| # | 08:17:32 | mrpeters-isl | hey everyone....quick question...can Evergreen accept a non-numeric character in the barcodes |
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| # | 08:30:08 | dmcmorris_esi | mrpeters-isl: absolutely |
| # | 08:31:42 | mrpeters-isl | i assumed so and it worked in the demo, but i just wanted to be sure it would work within our application as well |
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| # | 12:18:08 | dbs | yay, only 68 duplicate patrons between our 3 systems (and they're all well accounted for, being med students) |
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| # | 13:14:43 | FluffyCloud | moo? |
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| # | 13:20:04 | FluffyCloud | anyone home? :) |
| # | 13:27:33 | dbs | some, but taking off for a meeting right now :( |
| # | 13:28:22 | FluffyCloud | awh |
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| # | 13:48:19 | atheos | Question, when someone cancels a hold, I see that field "Hold Cancel Date/Time" gets modified, but it recorded anywhere on who initiated the cancelled hold? I'm trying to identify cancelled holds by patron/staff |
| # | 13:52:00 | FluffyCloud | mew |
| # | 14:08:10 | dbs | FluffyCloud: question? |
| # | 14:08:21 | FluffyCloud | yes. |
| # | 14:08:32 | FluffyCloud | it's short but may require some time to answer. |
| # | 14:08:48 | FluffyCloud | my question is: "so, how does this all, like, Work?" |
| # | 14:09:11 | rickd | Very Carefully |
| # | 14:09:27 | FluffyCloud | :) |
| # | 14:12:39 | FluffyCloud | i imagine i have more reading to do, but would anyone like to give me an overview of how a small library system with, say, only 6 branches, might work? |
| # | 14:13:09 | phasefx | atheos: you might be able to find that info in the logs.. not sure about the audit tables |
| # | 14:16:09 | FluffyCloud | anyone have an idea how long entering 1000 books into the system takes? |
| # | 14:16:27 | FluffyCloud | or 100 patrons? |
| # | 14:17:22 | phasefx | FluffyCloud: manual data entry? |
| # | 14:18:05 | FluffyCloud | phasefx: you seem to imply that there are alternatives to manual data entry, what are they? |
| # | 14:18:29 | phasefx | FluffyCloud: does the data already exist electronically? Are you migrating an existing system? |
| # | 14:18:39 | FluffyCloud | nope, new system. |
| # | 14:18:51 | FluffyCloud | working on ye olde card catalogues. |
| # | 14:19:20 | atheos | phasefx, thanks, I'll look in that direction. |
| # | 14:19:39 | phasefx | I'd time it.. register a fake patron on demo.gapines.org, double that time, and then multiply by 100 |
| # | 14:19:49 | atheos | FluffyCloud, how fast can you type? |
| # | 14:19:58 | phasefx | try to enter a catalog a few books on demo.gapines.org, and time it :) multiply by 1000 |
| # | 14:20:32 | FluffyCloud | phasefx: does everything have to be typed in, or can i just scan the isbn in and have it look everything else up for me? |
| # | 14:20:34 | eeevil | time how long it takes to give OCLC your anual budget ;) |
| # | 14:20:34 | phasefx | might be possible to OCR paper records, but I bet that could be painful, working out the kinks |
| # | 14:21:20 | phasefx | FluffyCloud: you can do ISBN searches against various sources and use their records |
| # | 14:21:40 | eeevil | FluffyCloud: you could search for ISBNs in the Library of Congress -- that's available by default, for free -- but the LoC doesn't have everything |
| # | 14:22:05 | FluffyCloud | but, is that integrated into this system, or are you suggesting i can do that on the side and then retype it into this system? |
| # | 14:22:32 | phasefx | I think there also companies that will do this sort of thing for you (catalog all your books in an electronic format suitable for import into an automation system) |
| # | 14:23:20 | FluffyCloud | phasefx: ahh, yes, the system in question talked to at least one such company and was a bit shocked by their pricetag ;) |
| # | 14:23:43 | phasefx | you can add more sources than LoC to EG.. you could also use a program like MARC Edit to search multiple sources and download those bib records (and then import those into EG) |
| # | 14:24:10 | FluffyCloud | phasefx: there is a bunch of volunteer support in the town though, to solve manual labor problems. |
| # | 14:24:11 | phasefx | I think MARC Edit has a z39.50 client, at least. I have seen some free ones that include lots of targets |
| # | 14:24:14 | eeevil | FluffyCloud: searching LoC (and any other compatible Z39.50 source) is integrated |
| # | 14:24:36 | FluffyCloud | thank you eeevil :) |
| # | 14:27:48 | FluffyCloud | anyone have a favorite barcode scanner? :) |
| # | 14:29:40 | FluffyCloud | also, do i have the general architecture correct? there's one central server that i'll have to setup and mantain, and then verious staff have clients, kiosks have clients, and it can also be hit using the web? |
| # | 14:31:19 | FluffyCloud | would it be useful to have the server software and the database on the same machine? or would they benefit from being seperated and each having the use of their own cpus? |
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| # | 14:39:37 | phasefx | FluffyCloud: you can run the whole server stack on a single machine (or virtual machine), or spread it out across multiple servers. Pros and cons for each scenario |
| # | 14:40:27 | phasefx | FluffyCloud: the only scanners I've used have been a CueCat (I don't recommend it) and some Metrologic scanner (that worked well) |
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| # | 14:52:04 | FluffyCloud | newegg agrees with you, by virtue of positive user feedback on more metrologic scanners than any other brand. |
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| # | 15:17:44 | kgs | i may be reading too fast but I took fluffycloud to be intersted in loading data electronically (as well as manually) |
| # | 15:24:56 | skmurphy_ | or via z39.50 interface |
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| # | 15:30:18 | dbs | i'm with kgs and skmurphy on that (was in meetings and on the phone forever, though) |
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| # | 15:32:18 | kgs | metrologic has a scanner that looks like Eva from WALL-E! http://www.metrologic.com/corporate/products/pos/MS7180/ |
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| # | 16:13:24 | skmurphy_ | FluffyCloud: you still about? |
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| # | 16:24:17 | FluffyCloud | meep? |
| # | 16:25:40 | FluffyCloud | i was away for a bit, i ran out to have a meeting with the director of the public library a town over. |
| # | 16:25:47 | skmurphy_ | I was going to tell you about the z39.50 client in Evergreen for importing MARC records, but I saw after I asked that eeevil had answered you. |
| # | 16:26:30 | skmurphy_ | Do you have any questions about using z39.50 to import records? You'd have to use it to import them one at a time if you go that route, but it's better than entering MARC records by hand. |
| # | 16:27:17 | FluffyCloud | one at a time? well, the books have to be entered one at a time when you slap the barcodes on them, yes? |
| # | 16:28:03 | FluffyCloud | wouldn't the process be in-line? you have scanned a new book! ... we don't know what it is! lets go fetch the marc record... your book is "Yeti Hunting" by Flesh Golem, yes/no/maybe? |
| # | 16:29:35 | skmurphy_ | yep |
| # | 16:39:46 | FluffyCloud | is there a limit on how many digits the barcode can be? |
| # | 16:41:11 | skmurphy_ | it can be as small as 1 character; i don't know what the upper limit is |
| # | 16:41:20 | skmurphy_ | (or if there is one; i've never exceeded it) |
| # | 16:41:30 | berick | something absurd, like 4G ;) |
| # | 16:41:59 | FluffyCloud | this all runs on postgres, right? |
| # | 16:42:18 | berick | 4294967296 charaacters ;) |
| # | 16:42:29 | berick | yep, Postgres |
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| # | 17:01:15 | FluffyCloud | is anyone running this in a production environment? |
| # | 17:02:00 | berick | FluffyCloud: evergreen? |
| # | 17:02:19 | FluffyCloud checks the channels name.... "yes, evergreen" |
| # | 17:03:12 | berick | since sept 2006. http://open-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_faq_1 |
| # | 17:03:18 | berick | see question 4 |
| # | 17:04:04 | FluffyCloud | berick: which one of those libraries do you run? |
| # | 17:05:09 | berick | FluffyCloud: most and none at the same time ;) I work with http://esilibrary.com/esi/ |
| # | 17:05:53 | berick | we provide evergreen services for most of the institutions on that page |
| # | 17:06:05 | FluffyCloud | hmm, so you're going to charge me for answers to the questions i have? :) |
| # | 17:06:33 | berick | FluffyCloud: yeah, i've already hacked your irc client! |
| # | 17:06:34 | berick | ;) |
| # | 17:08:05 | FluffyCloud | er... *checks* no, i don't believe you. |
| # | 17:08:52 | FluffyCloud | i'm used to getting this box 'hacked' every few weeks every time a new php vulnerability comes out, i'm pretty good at spotting it by now. |
| # | 17:09:18 | berick | hahaa |
| # | 17:09:41 | berick | yeah, i'm just bein' silly |
| # | 17:09:50 | FluffyCloud | ^_^ |
| # | 17:09:58 | FluffyCloud | so how much do you cost? |
| # | 17:10:53 | berick | FluffyCloud: if you're interested, i'd recommend sending a note to sales@esilibrary.com. |
| # | 17:11:00 | berick | or info@ |
| # | 17:11:32 | berick | not to dodge the question, it's just more complicated than a number |
| # | 17:11:39 | FluffyCloud | sigh, i know. |
| # | 17:11:57 | FluffyCloud | any number you say is likely to be different once your sales team gets a hold of it. ;) |
| # | 17:12:04 | skmurphy_ | If you're feeling adventurous, you could try setting up a test intance yourself |
| # | 17:12:06 | berick | exactly.... |
| # | 17:12:16 | FluffyCloud | i work in a similar environment. |
| # | 17:12:33 | FluffyCloud | i am generally working on setting up a test instance... |
| # | 17:12:54 | FluffyCloud | i've downloaded the vmware image but vmware player wants me to reboot my machine... i might do that in a few days. |
| # | 17:13:13 | FluffyCloud | i hate windows software always thinking i can just drop whatever i'm doing and reboot everytime i want some new software. |
| # | 17:13:54 | skmurphy_ | Yeah; especially when usually it's only wanting to reboot so that some file registration that's listed in the registry can take effect (or some other trivial aspect of the installation) |
| # | 17:15:19 | FluffyCloud | berick, well, if you can supply some answers without a fee, can you give me a ballpark on 'how much of a server' am i going to need? what units do you measure usage in? patrons? daily checkouts? collection size? |
| # | 17:17:16 | berick | FluffyCloud: for determining server size, all of those are important numbers. most important are probably transaction (circulation) counts, rough number of catalog searches, and size of collection (bibs and copies) |
| # | 17:21:10 | FluffyCloud | perhaps the question i should be asking is the inverse, how much library can a single computer serve? at what point do you need to move to a cluster? |
| # | 17:31:12 | dmcmorris_esi | FluffyCloud: The main "resource hog" is the Postgres server... If you get a good sized one of them, everything else is kind-of just gravy... |
| # | 17:31:27 | dmcmorris_esi | what kind of institutions are you thinking about, in terms of items/circs? |
| # | 17:31:50 | dmcmorris_esi | (if you have anything in mind, that is) |
| # | 17:36:59 | dmcmorris_esi | A quad-core server with 16GB RAM could probably handle a few libraries of 20k items/20k circs per year... a number of factors will affect it (as also will the type of use) |
| # | 17:37:25 | dmcmorris_esi | for example, a system that does little to no circ won't require much of anything... |
| # | 17:38:26 | dmcmorris_esi | (which might be the case for a private/special library) |
| # | 17:47:31 | FluffyCloud | *ponder*ponder* |
| # | 17:48:11 | FluffyCloud | the case i have before me is the implementation of a school library system |
| # | 17:48:44 | dmcmorris_esi | like public K12? |
| # | 17:49:10 | FluffyCloud | public schools, 1 highschool, 2 middle schools, 5 elementary schools. |
| # | 17:49:38 | dmcmorris_esi | what kind of internetworking between them? |
| # | 17:49:46 | FluffyCloud | right now? none. |
| # | 17:50:01 | FluffyCloud | but i'm good at that sort of thing. |
| # | 17:50:12 | FluffyCloud | i can handle networks and infrastructure. |
| # | 17:50:17 | skmurphy_ | do they share resources in any way? |
| # | 17:50:42 | dmcmorris_esi | was just curious about the bandwidth available between them... I bet a good sized server would do it |
| # | 17:50:43 | FluffyCloud | i don't believe they cross lend but i'll have to talk more with the individual staff once we get more involved. |
| # | 17:51:20 | FluffyCloud | if they listen to my recomendation, they'll all have Verison FIOS business lines between them and i won't have to worry about the bandwidth. |
| # | 17:51:22 | dmcmorris_esi | assuming you're talking about all them using one server that is... |
| # | 17:51:46 | FluffyCloud | i'd like them to all use one server, that cuts down on maintenance dramaticly. |
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| # | 18:38:15 | lisppaste6 | Apologies for the trouble today. The bot should stop bouncing in and out of your channel now. |
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| # | 21:38:36 | dbs | full house tonight |
| # | 21:43:18 | grahamf | full but quiet |
| # | 21:45:10 | djfiander | 853 20 $81$av.$bno.$u20$vr$i(year)$j(month)$k(day)$wb$x0101$yow0102,0702,0802,1202 |
| # | 21:45:42 | djfiander | LJ "is published 20 times a year, semi-monthly except monthly in January, July, August, and December" |
| # | 21:45:43 | berick | that's ... lovely |
| # | 21:45:56 | djfiander | I cheated and said it's semi-monthly with four omitted issues :) |
| # | 21:46:45 | berick | grahamf: where abouts are you in the dojo mind-meld? |
| # | 21:47:11 | grahamf | hey berick |
| # | 21:47:34 | grahamf | deep in the dojo morass :-) doing OK I think... |
| # | 21:48:03 | grahamf | I've got a question re: tags and subfields interface |
| # | 21:48:08 | berick | shoot |
| # | 21:49:11 | grahamf | I'm thinking the best interface for specifying multiple tags and subfields is an old-school one: just give a text-input for each, and allow multiple, (space/comma) separated entries |
| # | 21:49:33 | grahamf | maybe throw up a tool tip to help the inputter figure out what to do, and a little regex validator to make sure their input matches |
| # | 21:49:59 | grahamf | that sound okay to you? not very jazzy but seems the most efficient UI for the job |
| # | 21:50:09 | berick | grahamf: i think that'll be fine |
| # | 21:50:23 | grahamf | ok great |
| # | 21:50:35 | berick | this interface won't be heavily used once it's in place, so as long as it's clear what they need to do... i'm good with it |
| # | 21:50:48 | berick | efficiency is good |
| # | 21:51:01 | grahamf | yep, efficiency++ |
| # | 21:51:17 | berick | s/it's in place/the settings are in place/ |
| # | 21:51:20 | grahamf | Should "Bib/Auth Attribute Definitions" be a menu-button, like "Import Records", "Inspect Queue"? |
| # | 21:51:28 | grahamf | (a pair of menu buttons I guess)? |
| # | 21:52:17 | berick | grahamf: i was leaning in that direction. i could also see a top level Settings or Configuration option |
| # | 21:53:58 | berick | "Import Settings", maybe? i'm sure there will be other config needs for this interface |
| # | 21:54:12 | djfiander | berick: is there any particular language I should be doing the MFHD code in? I've just assumed that it was going to be a perl module that would get loaded by the ILS stuff |
| # | 21:54:21 | grahamf | Import settings sounds good. But "Bib" and "Authority" should have separate tables? |
| # | 21:54:22 | berick | of course, once that option is chosen, then what... maybe a tab container or some such |
| # | 21:54:44 | berick | djfiander: yes, your assumption is a good one |
| # | 21:54:52 | djfiander | *sigh* |
| # | 21:54:53 | djfiander | ;-) |
| # | 21:54:58 | berick | heh |
| # | 21:55:12 | grahamf | berick: ok, sounds good. |
| # | 21:55:13 | berick | sorry, djfiander |
| # | 21:55:27 | berick | grahamf: yes, separate tables |
| # | 21:55:49 | grahamf | berick: ok. -- it would be nice to have some data to display. I took a look at Vandelay.pm and was going to try my hand at adding some attr_definition method... |
| # | 21:55:50 | djfiander | berick: well, that's why I've already started working in Perl. Just wanted to make sure I was right. |
| # | 21:56:14 | grahamf | ...was going to copy an existing method, but can't find a "give me all the records in this table" one to steal from |
| # | 21:56:29 | berick | djfiander: right on |
| # | 21:56:36 | berick | grahamf: there should be one for attr defs... justa sec |
| # | 21:57:30 | berick | grahamf: see line 79 of vandelay.js |
| # | 21:57:54 | berick | we were able to take advantage of permaCRUD for the attr defs |
| # | 21:58:12 | berick | the trick with 'fetch all' is the id != null bit |
| # | 21:59:09 | grahamf | berick: ah, thank you. permaCRUD is my new friend. |
| # | 21:59:15 | miker_ | just popping in for a sec |
| # | 21:59:36 | berick | grahamf: well, you have miker_ to thank for permacrud |
| # | 21:59:41 | miker_ | you'll want to restrict "all the attr defs" to "all the attr defs owned by {foo}" I think |
| # | 21:59:56 | miker_ | hrm |
| # | 21:59:59 | miker_ | well, nevermind |
| # | 22:00:15 | miker_ | I'm thinking of vandelay... so that may be directed at berick ;) |
| # | 22:00:44 | grahamf | miker_: thank you for permacrud. ...we were talking about vandelay, though |
| # | 22:00:55 | berick | miker_: we're talking vandelay... but, i don't see an owner on vandelay.bib_attr_definition |
| # | 22:01:09 | miker_ | what am I thinking of then ... |
| # | 22:01:39 | berick | there are some ACQ attr def tables with owners |
| # | 22:02:00 | miker_ | ahh.. item_import_attr_definition |
| # | 22:02:35 | miker_ | which will also need an UI ... but works a little differently |
| # | 22:02:42 | berick | ahh |
| # | 22:02:53 | miker_ | not direct xpath |
| # | 22:03:08 | miker_ | if it's a single character, that is the subfield code |
| # | 22:03:56 | berick | cool, we've already found something else to put into the settings area ;) |
| # | 22:04:00 | miker_ | if it's more than one character, it's the predicate to the subfield selector part of (internally) constructed xpah |
| # | 22:05:01 | berick will probably need an example |
| # | 22:05:36 | miker_ | select * from vandelay.import_item_attr_definition; (on dev) |
| # | 22:06:23 | berick | and now i see |
| # | 22:06:27 | miker_ | sec, and I'll paste for all to see |
| # | 22:06:46 | berick | this will make the xpath mangling on the client end more interesting as well.. text() = "reference" |
| # | 22:07:34 | djfiander has quit IRC |
| # | 22:07:46 | miker_ | heh... well, |
| # | 22:09:07 | miker_ | I was going to suggest that we have text inputs that take subfield codes, but explain advanced options in the docs |
| # | 22:09:29 | miker_ | you wouldn't parse it anyway, since it's just a predicate definition, not full xpath |
| # | 22:09:57 | miker_ | and it's very unlikely to actually be needed for anything but evergreen ;) |
| # | 22:10:26 | berick | good point |
| # | 22:10:36 | miker_ | http://rafb.net/p/qYsnHu83.html |
| # | 22:11:47 | miker_ | and .... biab |
| # | 22:44:35 | grahamf | hm, i'm getting my ass kicked in dojo |
| # | 22:45:18 | grahamf | I want to do something like this: ItemFileReadStore({data:bibAttrDefs}), but that doesn't seem to work quite right; I only get one line in my table, and the field-lookups all result in '?' for the cell values |
| # | 22:45:43 | grahamf | berick: you there? or anyone else with dojo grid wisdom? |
| # | 22:46:01 | berick | yep |
| # | 22:46:06 | berick | sec |
| # | 22:46:08 | grahamf | ok |
| # | 22:47:36 | berick | grahamf: you'll need turn the list of attr defs into a store-ready structure.. {data:vqbrad.toStoreData(bibAttrDefs)} |
| # | 22:48:28 | grahamf | berick: aha, thanks, that works! |
| # | 22:48:34 | berick | excellent |
| # | 22:50:29 | dbs imagines berick wiping sweat off of brow |
| # | 22:50:32 | grahamf | My table is populated. I've used your MarcXmlParser to write getters for the subfield and code columns, and they actually display correctly |
| # | 22:51:18 | berick | woohoo |
| # | 22:51:24 | grahamf | take that dojo |
| # | 22:51:41 | grahamf forgets a comma: take that, dojo! |
| # | 22:53:22 | grahamf | I think I'm going to call it a night. I'll work a bit more on the new-definition form tomorrow (I assume permacrud has an insert variant for vqbrad?) and then look at edits |
| # | 22:53:27 | grahamf | slow progress, but progress |
| # | 22:53:45 | berick | yep, IIR, it's 'create' |
| # | 22:54:11 | berick | any progress with dojo, especially early on, is a hard won ;) |
| # | 22:54:22 | grahamf | berick: super, thanks. -- when this looks not completely awful, what do you want me to do with it? |
| # | 22:54:59 | grahamf | I doubt it will be commit-worthy until you've had a good look |
| # | 22:55:09 | berick | grahamf: i'd like to take a look.. you can send me files/patches to test |
| # | 22:55:39 | grahamf | berick: perfect, will do |
| # | 22:55:43 | berick | cool |
| # | 22:56:16 | grahamf | ok folks, happy evening to all |
| # | 22:56:23 | grahamf | and don't forget the uwindsor faculty in your prayers tonight :-) |
| # | 22:57:00 | grahamf has quit IRC |
| # | 23:50:47 | mlasater_ has joined #OpenILS-Evergreen |
| # | 23:50:47 | mlasater has quit IRC |
| # | 23:50:50 | mlasater_ is now known as mlasater |
April 10-13