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| # | 08:36:43 | dbs | thanks for the tag fix, gmcharlt |
| # | 08:45:25 | dbs | "the letters are in the right order, but they are not joined together" - knowing close to nothing about Arabic, is that a result of the font used to display the text? |
| # | 08:46:27 | tsbere | I read that as "some of the letters are supposed to be combined for whatever reason, such as ae occasionally ends up being one 'letter'" |
| # | 08:46:48 | tsbere | But I don't know enough about arabic to be certain |
| # | 08:46:58 | dbs | tsbere: yes, that's what I'm saying |
| # | 08:47:00 | dbs peers at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet#Ligatures |
| # | 08:47:35 | tsbere | Thing is, when I have seen ae combined (after being a and e) I have seen a unicode "joiner" between them.......seems a bit excessive to need that for a large portion of text. |
| # | 08:47:43 | dbs | when we used NFD, the display was much less pleasant for chars like é than NFC was |
| # | 08:52:50 | tsbere | Too early for me to be trying to parse this, I think, but it looks like in Arabic things are supposed to look different depending on where they are in the word or sentence? |
| # | 08:53:27 | tsbere | So not joining words properly would result in it not rendering even close to correctly |
| # | 08:56:01 | tsbere would need examples of wrong compared to correct rendering just to consider starting working on a solution |
| # | 08:56:04 | dbs | tsbere: I think we lack sufficient information to have an intelligent conversation |
| # | 08:56:23 | dbs | who wants to ask Christopher for said examples? |
| # | 08:57:07 | dbs | s/er// |
| # | 08:57:38 | tsbere lost the email in his tabs |
| # | 08:57:43 | tsbere | was it sent to general or dev? |
| # | 08:58:00 | dbs | general |
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| # | 09:08:07 | tsbere | I did some quick tests in firefox with some example words, and indeed the rendering changes (in firefox) depending on letter position. Insert whitespace in the middle and both sides of the whitespace change. |
| # | 09:08:23 | tsbere | Not sure what triggers that yet, though |
| # | 09:08:44 | tsbere | appears to be a standard utf-8 page |
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| # | 09:18:16 | AaronZ-PLS | Quick DB question: The view "payment_view" joins the money.payment table with "pg_class" to get the payment type (ie: forgive, cash, credit, etc). Where can I find this "pg_class"? I would like to do something similar as part of a different query, but having the payment type would be helpful |
| # | 09:20:43 | tsbere | AaronZ-PLS: Tis a postgres thing, I believe |
| # | 09:20:51 | tsbere | From a random version doc page: "The catalog pg_class catalogs tables and most everything else that has columns or is otherwise similar to a table." |
| # | 09:28:42 | AaronZ-PLS | tsbere:thanks |
| # | 09:29:56 | dbs | yay, green across the top of http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/buildbot/waterfall |
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| # | 09:46:50 | eeevil | tsbere: re the rendering of some unicode character points seems to depend on normalization form of utf-8 (obv, when so encoded) ... for some scripts NFD works better and for others NFC is better ... and (at least in IE7 and before) that "betterness" seems to be reversed |
| # | 09:49:10 | dbs | If Christoph could provide us with some sample records, and some screenshots of the text contained within how it should look and how it currently looks, that would probably be helpful |
| # | 09:49:57 | dbs | eeevil: yeah, I mentioned the NFC vs. NFD thing to tsbere as well; NFC in Firefox was way the hell better for our purposes |
| # | 09:50:12 | dbs | but samples++ + tests++ |
| # | 09:52:37 | eeevil | dbs: so you did. you++ |
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| # | 11:28:08 | phasefx | I've exposed a branch on evergreen-equinox.git called masslnc-vol-item-ui. The goal is to provide an option for unifying the volume/copy creator and item attribute editor, and to allow editing of parts and affixes |
| # | 11:29:18 | tsbere | I may have to check that out |
| # | 11:29:51 | tsbere | If only due to being employed by a masslnc member |
| # | 11:29:58 | phasefx | would definitely appreciate the eyeballs |
| # | 11:30:15 | eeevil | well, the parts and affix UI parts will probably be in the bib_parts and cn_affix branches ... |
| # | 11:30:26 | eeevil | for the time being |
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| # | 11:31:08 | tsbere | And now it may have become more work to look at than I have time for, and thinking about it I am not sure I could do looking at it justice. |
| # | 11:31:21 | tsbere can barely create items to begin with :( |
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| # | 11:58:14 | csharp | I have a question for ldirector users... |
| # | 11:59:06 | csharp | PINES is using ldirector to route to each of the brick heads, but looks to be using IPtables to route to our 2 SIP servers |
| # | 11:59:33 | csharp | is there any reason why the SIP routing would be done with IPtables and not ldirector? |
| # | 12:00:02 | bshum | csharp: I planned to try ldirector routing with SIP (we only have one server atm) |
| # | 12:00:35 | bshum | So it's just a single entry pointing to our SIP server currently. |
| # | 12:00:43 | bshum | Not sure what'll happen if we add additional ones |
| # | 12:01:32 | csharp | bshum: thanks for the feedback |
| # | 12:02:12 | bshum | csharp: mrpeters-isl doesn't seem to be on, but he might have additional information. I know EI uses a bunch of SIP servers, and they also run ldirector |
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| # | 12:07:17 | bshum | csharp: Don't know if you can trust it, but I found a doc where someone is making examples using SIP and ldirector: http://ur1.ca/3dfvb |
| # | 12:07:23 | bshum | So maybe it's fine? |
| # | 12:07:34 | csharp | bshum: thanks! |
| # | 12:07:54 | bshum | I'll be testing it soon enough. |
| # | 12:08:04 | bshum | So I'll let you know if we encounter any quirks on our end. |
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| # | 12:11:58 | bshum | Or vice versa if you get there first ;) |
| # | 12:13:13 | csharp | bshum: we're just looking to mirror the current setup, and asking questions along the way about whether X was set up for a particular reason or just because that's how someone chose to do it one day ;-) |
| # | 12:27:09 | phasefx | tsbere: so masslnc-cataloging-enhancements is the real branch we'll work with going forward. It pulls in cn_affix, bib_parts, and masslnc-vol-item-ui |
| # | 12:28:26 | tsbere does a git fetch for his remote to get the new branch/updates |
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| # | 12:30:49 | tsbere | I must be getting used to git. I just asked git to tell me what actually changed...and was looking at the answer before I realized I had asked git that. |
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| # | 13:06:59 | tsbere | well, looking at things, I would only have one suggestion so far |
| # | 13:07:14 | tsbere | And it is really isn't that important |
| # | 13:07:15 | eeevil | csharp / bshum: the primary reason for not using ldirector for SIP is (when PINES' EG cluster was built) ldirector didn't have a way to add arbitrary tests for health -- it knew about http (and thus ping.txt) natively, and could check a local file, but had nothing that would actually test the SIP pipe. So, because it didn't do more than iptables, and iptables is faster, we went with that |
| # | 13:09:51 | tsbere | phasefx: Do you want my not really all that important thoughts? |
| # | 13:09:59 | tsbere | or rather thought |
| # | 13:10:37 | phasefx | tsbere: I love thoughts |
| # | 13:10:58 | bradl | eeevil: I also remember an issue where the SIP connections wouldn't die correctly and it would eventually kill the SIP servers |
| # | 13:11:02 | tsbere | Well, in regards to the SQL queries in particular for call number prefix/suffix stuff |
| # | 13:11:11 | bradl | berick: remember that? --^ (using ldirector for sip load balancing) |
| # | 13:11:19 | tsbere | Currently they look like cnp.label || CASE WHEN cnp.label <> '' THEN ' ' ELSE '' END || cn.label || CASE WHEN cns.label <> '' THEN ' ' ELSE '' END || cns.label |
| # | 13:11:49 | tsbere | I think that they are slightly more readable, and possibly slightly faster, if they look like this: CASE WHEN cnp.label <> '' THEN cnp.label || ' ' ELSE '' END || cn.label || CASE WHEN cns.label <> '' THEN ' ' || cns.label ELSE '' END |
| # | 13:12:01 | eeevil | bradl: ahhh... yes indeed. ld kept closed connections half open, and the sip server wouldn't notice that |
| # | 13:12:03 | tsbere | And that is the extent of my thoughts so far. |
| # | 13:12:21 | bradl | we never solved why it did that... we just used iptables.. |
| # | 13:12:36 | bradl | 10% wrong, 90% done, to quote Rogan ;) |
| # | 13:12:42 | eeevil | heh |
| # | 13:12:59 | eeevil | tsbere: that's a fine point, and thanks for the eyeballs |
| # | 13:15:29 | eeevil | tsbere: actually, I'm going to use use a slightly different test, int >, which should be slightly faster still than a text <> |
| # | 13:15:37 | berick | bradl: yes, that matches my recollection. the "up test" chewed up backends |
| # | 13:16:43 | bradl | yeah, that's right |
| # | 13:17:42 | dbs | collective_memory++ |
| # | 13:18:08 | gmcharlt | collective_memory_recorded_by_pinesol++ |
| # | 13:18:54 | phasefx | pinesol_on_old_community_server-- :) |
| # | 13:19:15 | eeevil | so, the take-away is, "it'll work until it brings the whole thing to a screeching halt" ;) |
| # | 13:21:07 | tsbere | eeevil: Actually, I take back my "only that" comment. I didn't notice the default for prefix, at least, because the insert into is asset.call_number_preffix instead in 040.schema.asset.sql - and for that matter the insert for suffix is using sufffix too. |
| # | 13:23:59 | dbs hopes to add a "run eg_db_config.pl" test to the CI server for Evergreen to catch schema errors |
| # | 13:24:14 | dbs | or, you know, if anyone else wants to take a stab at editing buildbot.cfg... |
| # | 13:26:42 | tsbere | dbs: Potential issue is that on a dry run on a true fresh DB there are a number of error lines that can be safely ignored |
| # | 13:27:00 | bradl | we are the hive brain |
| # | 13:28:32 | eeevil | tsbere: fixxing the exxxxtra fs |
| # | 13:29:59 | jenny has quit IRC |
| # | 13:30:25 | dbs | tsbere: yes, you can filter known non-problems |
| # | 13:32:54 | csharp | phasefx: pinesol_on_lupin? |
| # | 13:34:13 | phasefx | csharp: need to put everything on lupin. maybe next weekend I can work on that |
| # | 13:34:30 | csharp | phasefx: lemme know how I can help |
| # | 13:34:40 | phasefx | will do |
| # | 13:36:43 | dbs | because everybody was dying for this, I put the current rules of governance draft into AsciiDoc format in http://svn.open-ils.org/trac/ILS-Contrib/browser/governance/governance.txt |
| # | 13:36:54 | gmcharlt | dbs++ |
| # | 14:04:30 | bshum | Hmm, on the holds pull list page, there's a "Print Page" button on the upper right hand corner that doesn't seem to ever work. |
| # | 14:04:38 | bshum | It just claims "We are unable to Print or Print Preview this page." |
| # | 14:04:44 | bshum | And might be a bit misleading |
| # | 14:04:53 | bshum | There is a print button in the lower left hand corner |
| # | 14:04:56 | bshum | That does work |
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| # | 14:11:43 | phasefx | bshum: we need to hide that button |
| # | 14:12:08 | bshum | phasefx: Is that all one bar across the top? I see there's a reload, etc on the left side too |
| # | 14:12:11 | phasefx | it's geared toward printing HTML pages, which the pull list no longer is in that context |
| # | 14:12:23 | bshum | Aha |
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| # | 14:36:57 | bshum | Also, it seems that we cannot clone any of our existing A/T event definitions. It's bumping up the sequence but not actually doing anything. |
| # | 14:37:15 | bshum | In our log, the error reads: "null value in column "hook" violates not-null constraint" |
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| # | 14:51:01 | dbs | kmlussier: http://masslnc.cwmars.org/ instead of http://masslnc.org ? |
| # | 14:51:58 | kmlussier | It redirects there, but I usually use masslnc.org. Is it not redirecting? |
| # | 14:54:11 | dbs | hmm. Didn't work earlier for me, but works now |
| # | 14:54:32 | dbs | never mind :) |
| # | 14:54:50 | tsbere | I believe redirection errors are my department on that one. Unless someone at cwmars can make it just know what masslnc.org is so I can point an A record thataway. |
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| # | 14:55:54 | bshum | So, it seems that attempting to clone an A/T event definition loses the hook, reactor, validator field entries from the original. |
| # | 14:56:26 | tsbere | bshum: That sounds significantly less like a "clone" than it should be |
| # | 14:56:33 | moodaepo | tsbere++ |
| # | 14:56:48 | bshum | tsbere: Yeah I'm trying to see if maybe it's because we're attempting to clone our old 1.6 A/T definitions vs. newer 2.0 ones |
| # | 14:56:55 | bshum | And if there's a significant difference between them |
| # | 14:57:16 | tsbere | I would expect a clone to make as close to a dupe as possible in that context, regardless of rule age. |
| # | 14:57:34 | bshum | Right, it used to work in 1.6 |
| # | 14:57:41 | bshum | But hasn't been working in 2.0 for us |
| # | 14:58:42 | kmlussier | dbs: Glad you made it in. Was starting to worry I would need to set out yet another correction on a URL. :-) |
| # | 14:58:57 | bshum | Oh weird, it works for some but not others. |
| # | 14:59:15 | bshum | Going to try to narrow down the differences |
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| # | 15:02:08 | tsbere | eeevil: In the readability improvements for the sql in biblio.pm, I think line 465 was intended to be removed (the old label build compared to the new that was put above it) |
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| # | 15:05:24 | eeevil | tsbere: that sounds like something I'd do... sec |
| # | 15:07:36 | eeevil | thansks |
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| # | 15:41:00 | AaronZ-PLS | Speaking on A/T event definitions. Is it possible for an A/T event to clear fines? |
| # | 15:42:52 | phasefx | AaronZ-PLS: I imagine you can create a Reactor for that; but there's not a stock one already doing it that I see |
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| # | 15:44:25 | bshum | Alright, so it's intermittent, some A/T we can clone, and others we can't. Nothing coming up different in the event_definition other than having different org units. And spontaneously, it seems that every so often, a definition we could clone at one point cannot be cloned a few moments later. |
| # | 15:45:02 | bshum | Poking at the logs for clues, but so far, coming up empty |
| # | 15:45:08 | AaronZ-PLS | We have several libraries who give fine free status for a year to people that contribute $100+ to a capital fund, but they are not fine free at other libraries and some of them are abousing that status. I would like to create an event that voids the fines for those people if the checkout library is the library which has granted the fine free status |
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| # | 15:46:30 | AaronZ-PLS | Is there a better way to do this? |
| # | 15:47:15 | tsbere | How do you know they are fine-free status to begin with? |
| # | 15:48:03 | AaronZ-PLS | currently there is a stat cat. We are looking to add a new patron group "donor" to replace that stat cat |
| # | 15:48:41 | tsbere | How do you plan to differentiate where they are a donor? |
| # | 15:49:02 | AaronZ-PLS | Home library |
| # | 15:49:08 | csharp | AaronZ-PLS: we recently had that request in PINES, but it was for a fines-free week - we did not do it in the software, but I'm interested in being able to |
| # | 15:49:51 | csharp | in that case, it was an entire library system within our consortium, and I figure it would be done with circ rules in 1.6-2.0 |
| # | 15:49:53 | bshum | One of our libraries apparently had a fines free week too. Lucky there's an "amnesty" checkin mode in 2.0 that voids all fines off incoming items. |
| # | 15:49:55 | tsbere | Well, when fallthrough comes around (2.1) you could rig it up so that the "donor" patron group when aligned with the correct user home ou gets a "no fines" recurring or max fine rule |
| # | 15:50:06 | csharp | bshum: nice! |
| # | 15:50:12 | eeevil | AaronZ-PLS: you could use a new bool staff-only user setting type as an opt-in setting for an A/T |
| # | 15:50:13 | bshum | 2.0++! |
| # | 15:51:27 | AaronZ-PLS | So the rule would be: "IF <PatronGroup> = Donor AND CircLib = HomeLib" void the bill with the message "Bill voided for Donor Patron" |
| # | 15:52:08 | AaronZ-PLS | eeevil: how would that work? |
| # | 15:56:06 | AaronZ-PLS | Would that be a new stat cat?, or is there another way to add a user setting? |
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| # | 16:07:23 | eeevil | AaronZ-PLS: you can add user settings |
| # | 16:07:42 | eeevil | (sorry ... attacking code ... shoulda just stayed quiet ;) ) |
| # | 16:08:36 | eeevil | AaronZ-PLS: but, as bshum said, having those users in a subgroup of Patron would be more straight forward |
| # | 16:09:31 | eeevil | well, I see bshum didn't say that, but mentioned amnesty |
| # | 16:09:31 | bshum | tsbere actually, but yes! |
| # | 16:09:46 | eeevil | right, tsbere |
| # | 16:09:50 | eeevil | bshum++ |
| # | 16:09:55 | eeevil | tsbere++ |
| # | 16:10:28 | bshum | Is the action_trigger_filters.json.example an important thing to have a real file equivalent for in an /openils/conf folder? |
| # | 16:12:08 | justin_mo | Hello all. I'm the IT guy for a library consortium in Missouri and we are considering implementing an open-source option for those libraries that might be interested. When researching options, Evergreen and Koha are the obvious front runners. Again and again I've seen it said (mostly by people who ended up going with Koha) that Evergreen is "more suited for large libraries and consortia" but haven't ever really seen any data to |
| # | 16:12:59 | phasefx | justin_mo: IRC will truncate long lines.. we didn't see what comes after "ever really seen any data to" |
| # | 16:13:13 | justin_mo | Oh, sorry. |
| # | 16:13:18 | justin_mo | ...back this up. |
| # | 16:13:25 | justin_mo | That's all you missed. |
| # | 16:14:05 | justin_mo | Looking for something to support the assertion that 'Evergreen is better for consortia' |
| # | 16:15:41 | phasefx | it was designed to support consortia, but small libraries use it as well |
| # | 16:16:23 | phasefx | it may be better to see what feature-sets are more closely aligned to what you're looking for when comparing these applications |
| # | 16:16:50 | gmcharlt | justin_mo: a lot depends on who you are organizing the option you are presenting to your libraries |
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| # | 16:17:19 | gmcharlt | if you're building (or have aims of buidling) a state wide resource-sharing system and shared catalog, that's what Evergreen was designed for |
| # | 16:18:02 | gmcharlt | if the libraries would be adopting individual open source catalogs, you might consider giving them option of picking either Evergreen or Koha based on features they need |
| # | 16:18:22 | gmcharlt | for example, if you need EDI support out of the box, Evergreen currently has that but Koha does not |
| # | 16:18:27 | justin_mo | gmcharlt: We actually have a state-wide resource sharing system, but it's almost completely academic libraries, and all are running Millennium |
| # | 16:18:37 | gmcharlt | conversely, if you need LDAP integration out of the box, Koha currently has that but Evergreen does not |
| # | 16:19:01 | gmcharlt | of course, both projects I think will ultimately converge on "checkbox" features like that |
| # | 16:19:57 | justin_mo | gmcharlt: w/r/t giving them the option, I don't think we have the bandwidth (personnel wise) to handle two different systems. Does Evergreen have qualities that make it inherently more scalable, cheaper to develop, more performant, etc? |
| # | 16:20:17 | justin_mo | Basically I'm talking about "non-checkbox" features |
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| # | 16:24:35 | gmcharlt | well, in the context of a shared Evergreen catalog, it's explicitly designed to be more scalable, particularly in terms of making it easy to add additional application servers as transaction growth warrants |
| # | 16:25:23 | gmcharlt | in particular, it lends itself well to setting up a bunch of relatively cheap application servers |
| # | 16:25:32 | justin_mo | gmcharlt: That's exactly the type of thing I'm curious about. |
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| # | 16:26:21 | gmcharlt | cheaper to develop? it's a wash. IMO, the barrier to entry to develop for Koha is lower, but Evergreen has a younger code base and has a bit less cruft |
| # | 16:26:38 | gmcharlt | Koha has a rather larger development community (and more commercial developers), though |
| # | 16:27:45 | justin_mo | From what I've seen the Koha devs are much more international. |
| # | 16:28:11 | phasefx | incidentally, http://koha-community.org/ is the definitive site for that project, in case you've been elsewhere |
| # | 16:28:12 | justin_mo | Also, despite the larger community of Koha, Evergreen seems to be adding new features more rapidly |
| # | 16:28:13 | gmcharlt | just as a point of information, by the way, I'm a committer to Evergreen and the release manager of Koha 3.2.0, so if you're detecting that I'm firmly straddling the fence, you'd be correct :) |
| # | 16:28:23 | dbs | Hey, Evergreen has international! USA _and_ Canada! |
| # | 16:28:32 | justin_mo | Ahaha |
| # | 16:28:34 | phasefx | and elsewhere |
| # | 16:28:36 | gmcharlt | dbs: and Georgia the country! |
| # | 16:29:34 | dbs | Sorry, I was talking about code contributions. Definitely, I recall a trip to Armenia a few years ago |
| # | 16:29:51 | justin_mo | gmcharlt: tbh, someone straddling the fence is exactly what I need. We were put in the position to make a decision, so it really puts us on the same fence... except we have to eventually pick a side. |
| # | 16:30:03 | gmcharlt | as far as rate of adding features - also a wash; some things that are new to Evergreen 2.0 Koha has had for years; on the other hand, some things that Evergreen does Koha doesn't currently support |
| # | 16:30:43 | phasefx | but we all love open source over proprietary ;-) |
| # | 16:31:23 | justin_mo | proprietary is the ditch running on both sides of said fence I think |
| # | 16:31:26 | dbs | Koha's next conference is in India, whereas Evergreen's is in Georgia (the state, not the country) :) |
| # | 16:32:21 | gmcharlt | justin_mo: as far as talking to (relatively close-by) libraries are concerned, you can get a good Koha perspective from several consortia in Kansas |
| # | 16:32:29 | gmcharlt | and the Evergreen POV from Indiana |
| # | 16:33:58 | dbs | gmcharlt and atz are probably the only people really qualified to talk about both koha and evergreen, so you lucked out justin_mo! |
| # | 16:34:16 | justin_mo | We actually took a trip up to Michigan to visit MLC before the INCOLSA merge. |
| # | 16:34:26 | justin_mo | dbs: I'm a lucky guy! |
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| # | 16:36:29 | justin_mo | Thanks for the start guys. |
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April 10-13