| # | Time | Nick | Message |
|---|
| # | 01:06:36 | pmplett has quit IRC |
| # | 07:13:34 | eby | is hashtag o pref evg10 |
| # | 07:21:38 | bott-otr | eby: yes ...eg10 was already taken for twitter :( |
| # | 07:31:29 | eby | just set the http://www.twapperkeeper.com/hashtag/evg10 |
| # | 07:32:33 | bott-otr has quit IRC |
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| # | 07:46:27 | jeff yawns |
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| # | 07:48:17 | bott-drd | Jeff: get it out of your system. Long day ahead |
| # | 07:48:59 | jeff | yep. heading down to lobby/reg now. |
| # | 07:49:57 | AmberJ has quit IRC |
| # | 07:50:02 | jeff | bott-drd: any idea if it's wired or wireless in the Pearl room? |
| # | 07:51:42 | bott-drd | Less |
| # | 07:56:47 | bott-drd | Ugh. Traffic. |
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| # | 08:53:50 | wjr | wow.. wireless is horrid |
| # | 09:00:10 | wjr | ok, this AP is much better |
| # | 09:00:16 | wjr | s/AP/SSID/ |
| # | 09:02:05 | atheos_ | AV15 is working great for me |
| # | 09:02:40 | mrpeters-isl | hey all, anyone know of a way i can queue up some "fake" courtesy email prenotices for myself to do some testing? |
| # | 09:03:17 | wjr | yup AV15 is the bees knees |
| # | 09:09:46 | bott-otr has joined #evergreen |
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| # | 09:16:50 | eby | this place = maze |
| # | 09:18:12 | wjr | yeah it's pretty crazy |
| # | 09:18:30 | wjr | it took us a solid half hour last night just to find registration ;) |
| # | 09:18:43 | eby | i found the aging conference 3 times |
| # | 09:18:49 | wjr | haha |
| # | 09:18:51 | eby | need more eg signs i think |
| # | 09:19:27 | atheos_ | here's what I used to figure this place out: http://www.amwaygrand.com/pdf/AGP_FloorPlans_2008.pdf |
| # | 09:21:10 | wjr | handy! |
| # | 09:22:46 | eby | i just followed the nerd looking people |
| # | 09:32:36 | Dmagick_ has quit IRC |
| # | 09:45:46 | atz | of interest in hotel door lock security... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7INIRLe7x0Y |
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| # | 10:00:40 | jeff | nerds-looking-people++ |
| # | 10:01:15 | jeff | typos-- |
| # | 10:02:17 | eby | the_coffee_here+- |
| # | 10:02:31 | wjr | the_starbucks_at_the_other_end_of_the_building++ |
| # | 10:46:35 | eby | things_blowing_up_at_work-- |
| # | 10:47:13 | wjr nods |
| # | 10:48:11 | wjr | with jeff and I here, we have only 1 tech left back home, and he only works afternoon/evening, so being a non-coder here in the hackfest, I get to take care of the things that can't be postponed until afternoon ;) |
| # | 10:54:39 | jamesrf has joined #evergreen |
| # | 10:55:26 | eby | most likely my relatives harassing staff up there about tech |
| # | 10:55:31 | jamesrf has quit IRC |
| # | 10:55:36 | eby is happy that tadl supports them instead of him |
| # | 10:56:06 | wjr | hehe we are happy to do it! ;-) |
| # | 11:13:01 | atheos_ | anyone seen this error before? OILS: Item config script [ARRAY(0x24c58b0) : circ/circ_item_config.js] failed to run: Error: ReferenceError: js2JSON is not defined at line 0: (null) |
| # | 11:19:48 | Dyrcona has joined #evergreen |
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| # | 11:24:21 | lisppaste3 | Dyrcona pasted "Ingest Error in Trunk" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98088 |
| # | 11:24:47 | Dyrcona | So, I'm sitting at the hack fest working on my bib ingest problems with trunk. |
| # | 11:25:23 | Dyrcona | I was getting errors about bad 785 tags, so I split all of my bibs with 785 tags into their file and loaded them 1 at a time into the trunk database. |
| # | 11:26:03 | Dyrcona | Now, instead of getting a message about 785 tags missing a subfield, which none of my 785 tags actually do. I have verified that all of the 785 tags have at least 1 subfield. |
| # | 11:26:18 | Dyrcona | I get the message that I posted at lisp paste. |
| # | 11:26:48 | Dyrcona | The question is, has anyone seen this when importing records into trunk, and what did you do to resolve it? |
| # | 11:27:58 | Dyrcona | Maybe, I should just shout, "Hey! Anybody seen this?" :) |
| # | 11:28:05 | atheos_ | disregard my question. I don't need any help, I just need to be in proximity of Evergreen developers in order to fix my issues. |
| # | 11:28:35 | bshum | Dyrcona: That sounds like it would be fun ;) |
| # | 11:29:44 | Dyrcona | atheos_: missed your question. |
| # | 11:30:08 | atheos_ | well, I didn't fix it after all - crap - I'll ask it again on your behalf :) |
| # | 11:30:16 | atheos_ | anyone seen this error before? OILS: Item config script [ARRAY(0x24c58b0) : circ/circ_item_config.js] failed to run: Error: ReferenceError: js2JSON is not defined at line 0: (null) |
| # | 11:32:46 | Dyrcona | Hmm. No, I haven't seen that. You're getting it when you run the circulation scripts. |
| # | 11:32:50 | Dyrcona | ? |
| # | 11:33:31 | bott-otr has quit IRC |
| # | 11:51:40 | Dyrcona | Eureka!!!!! |
| # | 11:51:42 | atheos_ | Dyrcona, getting that error when checking out via SIP. media type, magnetic media flag is not being passed because it's choking on circ_item_config.js |
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| # | 15:23:32 | atz | bummer... "use of inherited AUTOLOAD is deprecated" |
| # | 15:30:21 | wjr | I hear a lot of people saying "coffee" in my vicinity. |
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| # | 19:55:37 | eby drinks some bourbon and hopes others are too |
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| # | 23:05:37 | jeff | 7~/me yawns |
| # | 23:05:55 | jeff | oh dear. |
| # | 23:06:00 | jeff yawns |
| # | 23:06:01 | jeff | that's better. |
| # | 23:06:25 | gmcharlt | jeff: where did you find the cloning machine? |
| # | 23:06:26 | eby | all about the typos |
| # | 23:06:52 | eby | jeff: remind me to talk to you about holds more tomorrow |
| # | 23:06:59 | eby | after i depressed atz |
| # | 23:07:58 | jeff | gmcharlt: cloning machine? uhoh. do i have clones running around? |
| # | 23:08:14 | gmcharlt | maybe, I just heard 7 of you yawn |
| # | 23:08:19 | jeff | eby: willdo. i am testing my FIFO holds now. |
| # | 23:08:50 | bott-otr is sending a scathing email to staff regarding holds |
| # | 23:08:56 | jeff | eby: then to test some "send age hold protected copies home" and a "send copies home to fill holds if they haven't been home in a while" |
| # | 23:09:27 | jeff | turns out jamesrf implemented fifo holds almost exactly the way i did this morning. he tested it recently, was to put in production soon. |
| # | 23:09:39 | jeff | so... |
| # | 23:09:46 | jeff | independent_confirmation++ i guess! |
| # | 23:10:05 | jeff is amused at the concept of "homesick" copies |
| # | 23:10:12 | eby | in my spare time i think i realized how to make this a clusterfuck |
| # | 23:10:25 | jeff | and is that how you depressed atz? |
| # | 23:10:33 | eby | yes |
| # | 23:10:38 | jeff | is atz here, by the way? i'd think so, but i don't know if i've encountered him yet. |
| # | 23:10:45 | eby | no he isn't |
| # | 23:10:49 | eby | he did c4l |
| # | 23:10:53 | eby | already grilled him |
| # | 23:10:53 | jeff | ah, got it. |
| # | 23:11:13 | eby | more on the combining diff holds models |
| # | 23:11:25 | eby | that i poorly discussed with you |
| # | 23:11:31 | jeff | i'm intrigued and terrified at your suggestion earlier of doing some kind of external opensrf callback for local hold mangling. |
| # | 23:11:38 | bott-otr | how do you justify sending two copies from A to B and B to A to fill holds, when they could have filled holds without transit? |
| # | 23:11:41 | eby | well i explained that poorly |
| # | 23:11:48 | eby | wasn't about external |
| # | 23:11:51 | jeff | but i really think the "hold priority" queue option has potential. |
| # | 23:12:12 | eby | was more about having more of a encased "hold" logic functions |
| # | 23:12:22 | eby | that you can mix and match |
| # | 23:12:30 | jeff | essentially "you have X priority to burn on holds. hold goes to the patron who 'wants it more'" |
| # | 23:12:37 | bott-otr now runs off to bed |
| # | 23:13:00 | eby | so that a checkin event can cause a cascade in logic |
| # | 23:13:15 | eby | rather than expanding one function |
| # | 23:13:22 | jeff | bott-otr: if that was a question for me, i'm not sure i can justify it, but then B checks in at A, we don't yet know that A will check in at B |
| # | 23:13:23 | eby realizes still not doing well |
| # | 23:14:05 | jeff | 'strict FIFO' holds are an experiment, IMO. one that we'll try, and hopefully pay close attention to in terms of trying to see if we're doing a lot of unnecessary transits. |
| # | 23:14:15 | eby | jeff: more of how to handle situation where you have multiple queue stiles of fifo, priority, etc in one system |
| # | 23:14:46 | eby | where hold logic is similar to circ modifyer |
| # | 23:14:55 | jeff | yeah, that gets tricky. is the user who didn't opt into the 'wants it more' style queue disadvantaged because all their holds are at priority zero? |
| # | 23:15:28 | eby | well priority based on local definition |
| # | 23:16:03 | eby | but if you support series this is going to come up i think |
| # | 23:16:12 | jeff | does having three holds give you the option to have 1, 0, -1, and then you get a huge boost by having 40 holds and having your 'top' hold be 39 and your bottom be -39, and you just use it to jump to the front of the line on that prio 39 hold? |
| # | 23:16:31 | eby | someone who is waiting for disc 2 versus fifo disc 2 |
| # | 23:16:56 | jeff | yeah. different hold priorities don't seem to mix well at first glance. |
| # | 23:17:03 | jeff | i had this discussion with miker the other day. |
| # | 23:17:44 | eby | which puts me towards hold "plugin/modules" with various weights |
| # | 23:17:56 | eby | for local weighting |
| # | 23:18:43 | eby | jeff: but in general i see large overlap so coexistance is already there |
| # | 23:19:11 | eby | you have the i want x queue which has paused holds |
| # | 23:19:23 | eby | fifo is just i want everything |
| # | 23:19:48 | eby | and then priorty is a subset of both |
| # | 23:20:20 | jeff | if SYS1 wants to do holds as FIFO and SYS2 wants to do them as FIFO+PRIO, and SYS3 wants to do them as PROX (the current behavior)... as long as SYS1, SYS2, and SYS3 all limit holds to copies within their systems, making them all essentially independent, probably fine. |
| # | 23:21:00 | eby | i'm obviously biased towards system |
| # | 23:21:03 | jeff | mixing two methods at the same level is what seems tricky to me, and i'm still not sure if i need to tweak any FIFO into the hold targeter itself. I don't *think* so, but I haven't thought it through yet. |
| # | 23:21:19 | jeff | Something like the priority stuff sounds like it would need to be in the targeter also. |
| # | 23:22:01 | jeff | okay, i see priority as being a subset of active/suspended holds. |
| # | 23:22:26 | jeff | but the latter is more of an "i don't want this right now" as opposed to "i don't want this as much as i want this other thing" |
| # | 23:22:33 | jeff | then again, maybe it's not that different. |
| # | 23:23:19 | jeff | but an "inactive" or frozen hold is pretty absolute. it will never have anything captured... as opposed to the "i don't want this as much" would still be captured as long as nobody wanted it "more" |
| # | 23:23:46 | jeff | it starts to get into enough complexity that i can't find myself explaining it simply to staff/patrons. |
| # | 23:24:23 | eby | well similar here |
| # | 23:24:38 | jeff | but i do want to put more thought into the 'give me this series, in order' and "don't give me more than X at a time of these" |
| # | 23:24:46 | eby | there's no way to give good info on say a hold page |
| # | 23:24:58 | eby | but 1 of 1 also doesn't give much |
| # | 23:25:10 | eby | you can't say when '1' is coming back |
| # | 23:25:51 | eby | jeff: but what i was trying to ask you was whether there was a good opensrf way to build "module" type things |
| # | 23:26:02 | eby | where you can have multiple things listen for an action |
| # | 23:26:06 | eby | and cascade |
| # | 23:26:36 | jeff | which does strike me as more of the drupal idea of a 'hook' |
| # | 23:27:13 | jeff | and no, i'm not aware. there was a module/versioning proposal a while back, but i don't remember if it addressed that. |
| # | 23:27:16 | eby | so tadl could say fifo is more important than x of x |
| # | 23:27:26 | eby | but we could say x of x is higher |
| # | 23:27:37 | eby | but still allow us to develop the fifo together |
| # | 23:27:43 | eby | as a unit |
| # | 23:27:54 | eby | and not duplicate full workflows |
| # | 23:28:42 | eby | if that makes sense |
| # | 23:28:48 | jeff | creating different hold capture (or hold opporunistic capture) logic can be done in mainline code after experimentation and an org unit setting can be used to select which to use. |
| # | 23:29:50 | jeff | it works best if you say SYS1 holds have a hard boundary such that they only consider SYS1 copies -- and SYS2 has a similar where they only consider SYS2 copies... and then SYS1 and SYS2 can have different capture logic. |
| # | 23:30:33 | eby | with the explanation of opportunistic vs targeted holds it seemed like multiple processes don't work well currently but if you could choose priority then maybe they could |
| # | 23:30:48 | eby | i think the easiest would be to choose one |
| # | 23:30:58 | jeff | SYS1 and SYS2 allow holds to target copies at each other, then having two different capture logic results in what miker_ was warning about earlier... spooky action at a distance and 'unfair' capture practices. |
| # | 23:30:59 | eby | not yet convinced it would be the best |
| # | 23:31:35 | eby | since you already have things like the holds that are skipped for vacation , etc |
| # | 23:32:01 | eby | so there is already things skipping over people |
| # | 23:32:13 | eby | and really you are changing who is being skipped |
| # | 23:32:29 | jeff | sure, but right now that's just active/inactive holds (frozen/thawed to use the old terms) |
| # | 23:32:46 | eby | yeah |
| # | 23:33:00 | jeff | there's no current 'this patron is on vacation', and i think if there ever grew something like that, it would be implemented as a "suspend all these holds" |
| # | 23:33:08 | eby | yeah |
| # | 23:33:11 | jeff | (and would just be a convenience UI) |
| # | 23:33:18 | bott-otr hasn't read the whole scroll, but... |
| # | 23:33:33 | eby | and a this person is not ready could also just be "suspend all these" |
| # | 23:33:40 | bott-otr | what about the possibility of a wildcard pickup location? ...obviously for small systems |
| # | 23:33:42 | jeff | because inspecting each hold user for a 'on vacation' bit would probably be too much of a pain. |
| # | 23:34:00 | bott-otr | where a patron would choose to get the next available, and travel to get it |
| # | 23:34:01 | jeff | bott-otr: "your item is ready for pickup, but we're not going to transit it for you"? |
| # | 23:34:05 | eby | was thinking along the lines of logic that says "this person is ready" |
| # | 23:34:09 | bott-otr | jeff: right |
| # | 23:34:22 | jeff | bott-otr: dunno, but i'll keep it in mind as i poke around. |
| # | 23:35:00 | bott-otr | preserves efficiency, but reduces convenience |
| # | 23:35:00 | eby | so it can be reused |
| # | 23:35:19 | jeff | currently if a patron tries to place a hold on an uncommon item that is age hold protected to not leave BR2 but the patron attempts a hold for pickup at BR1, it fails with the "one of these five things may have prevented this hold from being placed" |
| # | 23:35:28 | eby | someone with disc 1 of 5 of series has 3-5 suspended |
| # | 23:35:38 | eby | someone with a netflix style hold has many suspended |
| # | 23:35:52 | eby | and various other levels |
| # | 23:36:02 | jeff | i would like to see it offer a "if you opt to pick this item up at BR2 you'll be able to place the hold" -- or something almost as helpful but not as specific, perhaps. |
| # | 23:36:03 | eby | it would be logic of deciding who was ready |
| # | 23:36:43 | eby | we luckily don't have those |
| # | 23:37:03 | eby | we allow holds as soon as entered in the system even if months from fullfilment |
| # | 23:37:22 | jeff | i think giving patrons the option of wildcard pickup location would be nice, but for our district we're a bit too farspread. it's more effecient and more convenient for the courier to transit something from branch1 to member3 to fill a hold. |
| # | 23:37:58 | jeff | even though branch1 and branch2 might be close to each other, and both might be equally "on the way" for a patron on their way to work/school... that's not something to rely on. |
| # | 23:38:26 | jeff | "please select the libraries that you would be willing to pick this item up at"... save this as my default... |
| # | 23:38:43 | jeff | i want to try 'simple' fifo first and see how it goes. |
| # | 23:38:50 | eby | def |
| # | 23:38:56 | eby | that's what we have now |
| # | 23:39:09 | eby | i could see something like what i'm thinking helping with that |
| # | 23:39:22 | eby | you could weight the types based on location as well |
| # | 23:39:59 | eby | and then you have the -10 fudgie factor |
| # | 23:40:03 | jeff | i don't want to study data and say "hey, these two holds would have been more efficient/convenient if the system did FOO", if things were pretty darn convenient/efficient for the other 3000 holds that month. |
| # | 23:40:43 | eby | wasn't thinking that level |
| # | 23:41:16 | eby | @karma fudgies |
| # | 23:41:16 | pinesol | eby: fudgies has neutral karma. |
| # | 23:41:23 | jeff | well, i'm considering spot checking things if we try this experiment, so i'm making a note for myself to not try and be perfect. |
| # | 23:43:15 | eby | well fifo is def top priority for us |
| # | 23:43:20 | eby | so we don't go backwards |
| # | 23:43:33 | eby | the rest is things we've just discussed going forward |
| # | 23:43:42 | eby | @karma permafudge |
| # | 23:43:42 | pinesol | eby: permafudge has neutral karma. |
| # | 23:45:02 | phasefx | who coined homesick copies? |
| # | 23:45:09 | jeff | heh, me i think. |
| # | 23:45:21 | eby | anyone with iii floating collections |
| # | 23:45:30 | phasefx | is that where the copies must transit back to their circ lib at some point? |
| # | 23:46:44 | jeff | idea would be that i would put a time since last home attribute on the copy, and there might be a ou setting for the circ lib of the copy... which was consulted when checking in at a remote library... if now() - time_last_home > homesick_setting, AND if there were any holds for pickup at home, send it home. |
| # | 23:47:01 | jeff | but don't send it home just to send it home... because then it would be captured and transit right back out. |
| # | 23:47:12 | eby | with iii it is more that everyone is at the party and no one can find a home |
| # | 23:47:28 | jeff | but i DO want to verify and implement (because i don't think it's there) a "send age hold protected items home when they check in at a remote lib" |
| # | 23:47:41 | eby | carts_full_of_stuff-- |
| # | 23:48:50 | eby | jeff: glen has plenty of campfire horror stories of floating collections if you ever need lessons |
| # | 23:48:58 | phasefx | jeff: sounds cool to me. I was thinking a simpler "total transits" threshold that just sent items back home regardless of what was going on |
| # | 23:49:44 | jeff | WELCOME TO THE EVERGREEN HOLD LOGIC SETUP WIZARD. ANSWER THE FOLLOWING MULTIPLE CHOICE QUESTIONS: |
| # | 23:49:52 | jeff | 1. Our courier system is: |
| # | 23:49:59 | jeff | a. fast and efficient |
| # | 23:50:06 | jeff | b. slow as molasses |
| # | 23:50:12 | jeff | c. what courier? |
| # | 23:50:29 | jeff | 2. We would prefer that items: |
| # | 23:50:31 | phasefx | d. expensive |
| # | 23:50:36 | jeff | a. be checked out to patrons |
| # | 23:50:43 | eby | jeff: for our floats it depends on whether school is in session and which places have the easiest dropoffs for X mode of transportation |
| # | 23:51:02 | jeff | b. sit on the shelf, because they're "ours" |
| # | 23:51:02 | jeff | (etc, etc) |
| # | 23:51:30 | jeff | eby: oh, we've already had the question of "can we have zero fines for students when they check out during school hours at library X"? |
| # | 23:51:45 | eby | youth dvd return = where storytime is scheduled this month |
| # | 23:52:58 | eby | with floating dvd collection + iii = work |
| # | 23:53:31 | eby | jeff: you were messing with floating for awhile weren't you |
| # | 23:53:40 | eby | i need to look more into that for eg as well |
| # | 23:54:25 | jeff | we had floating collections in the past, we do not have them any longer. |
| # | 23:54:42 | jeff | that's the official version of reality. |
| # | 23:55:14 | jeff | actual reality is that there are still some in the system, but call number is about the only thing that clues us to them being leftover rotating items. |
| # | 23:55:21 | eby | i'll bug you more tommorrow |
| # | 23:55:31 | eby | hopefully over beverages |
| # | 23:55:38 | jeff | i'm not sure if it's a case of them not having attributes changed properly when they were made 'non-rotating', or what. |
| # | 23:55:41 | jeff | indeed! |
| # | 23:55:42 | phasefx | some old threads re: floating collections, http://markmail.org/message/nsq2tb6m6qhxyk2e http://markmail.org/message/y7wmzrss3zbxgjj5 |
| # | 23:56:40 | jeff | almost the opposite of bott's 'wildcard pickup_lib' idea would be 'homeless copies'... where they just go back on the shelf wherever they happen to check in. |
| # | 23:57:01 | eby | that would be iii |
| # | 23:57:10 | jeff | almost need a configurable 'room at the inn' / 'lot full' to keep things balanced, though. |
| # | 23:57:18 | eby | except if there is no room it would be endless carts |
| # | 23:57:24 | jeff | hah! |
| # | 23:57:35 | eby | where someone manually sends carts somewhere else |
| # | 23:57:44 | jeff | well, see... i anticipated that problem and fixed it with a cute name and no code! |
| # | 23:57:57 | phasefx | we have homeless style now as an option in trunk I believe |
| # | 23:58:21 | jeff patches 1.6.0.1 image with fifo holds logic |
| # | 23:58:41 | jeff | here's where i get to see if i'm doing my ou setting correctly. |
| # | 23:58:51 | jeff | i think i'll need help making an upgrade script if this works. |
| # | 23:58:58 | eby looks forward to checkbox of whether he wants "carts full of shit" on homeless option |
April 10-13