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2008-03-04T02:10:21  <Fox> hi, all
2008-03-04T02:10:42  <Fox> anyone here?
2008-03-04T02:12:33  <Fox> I just want to ask some Question about Evergreen
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2008-03-04T02:15:42  <Fox> Halooooo ????
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2008-03-04T10:43:46  <berick> 1.2.2 has hold freezing/thawing.  I'm trying to nail down the terminology.  i think freeze/thaw explains it quite well (and will be used internally), but i'm not sure that's the friendliest way to present it to the patron.  I was thinking active vs. suspended.  thoughts/
2008-03-04T10:43:52  <berick> er.. thoughts?
2008-03-04T10:44:18  <dbs> active vs. suspended is way better
2008-03-04T10:44:31  <miker_> active/suspend works for me
2008-03-04T10:44:45  <miker_> activate/suspend?
2008-03-04T10:45:02  <miker_> dbs: or do you mean just active y/n
2008-03-04T10:45:51  <dbs> when writing about it, we'll want to be able to use two verbs
2008-03-04T10:45:53  <jeff> heh. call them "on hold"? ;)
2008-03-04T10:45:58  <berick> i'm thinking the holds display will have an "Active" column with a green check or red X (or some such).  the action dialogs will say "activate hold" or "suspend hold"
2008-03-04T10:46:02  <berick> jeff: haha
2008-03-04T10:46:20  <berick> hold held
2008-03-04T10:46:40  <dbs> berick: exactly what I was thinking; "active" is the attribute (y/n), and "activate / suspend" are the verbs relating to that attribute
2008-03-04T10:46:49  <dbs> tech writers obsess over these things
2008-03-04T10:46:59  <jeff> and for the most part, we're glad that they do. :)
2008-03-04T10:47:02  <berick> good, cuz I don't ;)
2008-03-04T10:47:21  <berick> alright, thx for the input
2008-03-04T10:47:28  * berick tries to get 1.2.2 pounded into shape
2008-03-04T11:15:22  <bradl> yah! mule! yah!
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2008-03-04T12:29:02  <rsinger> miker_: so here's where the (potential) conflict is for me
2008-03-04T12:29:17  <miker_> oh dear...
2008-03-04T12:29:24  <rsinger> miker_: opensrf is (basically) evergreen without its clothes on, right?
2008-03-04T12:29:29  <miker_> nope
2008-03-04T12:29:31  <rsinger> miker_: currently
2008-03-04T12:29:33  <rsinger> oh
2008-03-04T12:29:44  <miker_> opensrf has nothing to do with any application
2008-03-04T12:30:04  <rsinger> is it an entirely separate project?
2008-03-04T12:30:08  <miker_> the opensrf-0.9.tar.gz has 0% evergreen code in it
2008-03-04T12:30:09  <miker_> yes
2008-03-04T12:30:14  <rsinger> ah, ok
2008-03-04T12:30:27  <miker_> there's not even an evergreen-ish example file in the opensrf codebase
2008-03-04T12:30:49  <rsinger> so no conflict in my mind
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2008-03-04T12:31:02  <miker_> gooood
2008-03-04T12:31:33  <rsinger> i mean, that doesn't eliminate the other questions :)
2008-03-04T12:32:01  <rsinger> but the question of ownership is really the only non-technical one
2008-03-04T12:32:06  <miker_> opensrf trunk (soon to be 1.0, as in, within the next couple weeks if I can find time to apply the remaining patches and we can do some testing and stuff) even breaks compat with <=eg-1.2
2008-03-04T12:33:00  <miker_> well, "ownership" ... it's GPLv2+, and there are ~4 code contributors, and there's a mix of GPLS/ESI/individual ownership
2008-03-04T12:33:17  <rsinger> uh, again, perceived ownership
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2008-03-04T12:33:29  <miker_> it's at the point where there's enough in there that nobody can claim big-O Ownership
2008-03-04T12:33:34  <rsinger> i mean, i can gpl something
2008-03-04T12:33:43  <rsinger> but if its main job is support something else i write
2008-03-04T12:34:05  <rsinger> i effectively own the development map
2008-03-04T12:34:15  <miker_> heh
2008-03-04T12:35:22  <miker_> well, fwiw, I've pushed for tons of stuff (and gotten it in) that is of 0 use to evergreen today, and maybe never, in the name of consistency and correctness and GoodDesign(tm) ... I know my word doesn't fix the perception issue, but I'm wondering if there really is one
2008-03-04T12:35:46  <rsinger> well, like i said, to me, the perception issue is moot
2008-03-04T12:37:11  <rsinger> i was a little confused about your point about the language agnosticism, though... wouldn't the jangle core apis have to be written in *something*?  or does opensrf just expose the resources that the connectors provide?
2008-03-04T12:37:11  <miker_> I mean, if we describe OpenSRF as "the thing that Evergreen is built on" then, sure, there's a tying problem.  but if we say "it's a language-agnostic, scalable application framework and ESB uppon which clusterable apps can be built", then ....
2008-03-04T12:37:27  <rsinger> please don't say the latter, because even i glaze over at that
2008-03-04T12:38:33  <miker_> re "core stuff", they have to be written in something, sure, but not just one language.  if we cut up the core jangle API based on functionallity (not connector API, mind you! just the jangle core stuff) then each section can be written in whatever the responsible author prefers
2008-03-04T12:39:33  <miker_> ha... my point was that we don't need to say "the evergreen thing" ... we can say "a clusterable, fault tolerant, XMPP-based message passing system" or something
2008-03-04T12:39:53  * rsinger glazes again.
2008-03-04T12:39:56  <miker_> haha
2008-03-04T12:40:17  <rsinger> bradl: keep him away from marketing
2008-03-04T12:40:29  <miker_> ok, well, I'll leave that to someone else that knows the right non-glazing buzzwords to use that don't include "evergreen"
2008-03-04T12:40:32  <bradl> rsinger: yessir
2008-03-04T12:40:46  <miker_> the other option is: we don't talk about opensrf, we just use it.
2008-03-04T12:40:56  <rsinger> miker_: that'd be my preference
2008-03-04T12:40:56  <bradl> sounds like fight club
2008-03-04T12:41:25  <bradl> errr. club club
2008-03-04T12:41:25  <rsinger> miker_: just like i didn't want to talk about rack before opensrf came up
2008-03-04T12:41:27  <rsinger> i just want to use HTTP calls
2008-03-04T12:41:48  <miker_> "so, you want to write a connector for FooBar v7.5? great, here's a SOAP-client example. modify to your liking."
2008-03-04T12:42:00  <rsinger> miker_-- #SOAP
2008-03-04T12:42:03  <miker_> "done? super. plug it into the config file thusly"
2008-03-04T12:42:12  <miker_> dude, I'm just making an example here
2008-03-04T12:42:26  <rsinger> DAMMIT MAN, WE'RE TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO USE THIS!
2008-03-04T12:42:33  <miker_> "here's a screen-scraping connector for Voyager"
2008-03-04T12:43:39  <rsinger> yeah, i figure one side effect will be a 'native templates best practices wiki for screen scrapability'
2008-03-04T12:43:51  <miker_> anyway, yeah. opensrf is completely separate.  different release cycle, different SVN repo, etc.
2008-03-04T12:46:27  <rsinger> bueno
2008-03-04T12:48:17  <miker_> rsinger: so, as an example of "low overhead", the shiny new SRU interface (searchRetrieve only right now) is all of 40 lines of mod_perl handler, 11 of which are blank or logging, and 25 of which are }s or SRU.pm stuff ... :)
2008-03-04T12:48:52  <miker_> the remaining 4 lines are basically 2 opensrf calls, formatted all purty-like
2008-03-04T12:49:18  <rsinger> well.... that's pretty cool
2008-03-04T12:49:45  * berick buts in with something random.  am I missing something?
2008-03-04T12:49:47  <berick> js> Date.parseIso8601("2008-03-31 00:00:00-04")
2008-03-04T12:49:47  <berick> Sun Mar 30 2008 23:00:00 GMT-0400 (EDT)
2008-03-04T12:50:53  <berick> hm, must be some EDT vs EST magic happening here
2008-03-04T12:50:56  <miker_> yeah
2008-03-04T12:51:00  <rsinger> EDT is GMT-6, isn't it?
2008-03-04T12:51:06  <miker_> -5
2008-03-04T12:51:16  <rsinger> no, that's EST
2008-03-04T12:51:23  <rsinger> oh, wait
2008-03-04T12:51:28  <rsinger> spring forward
2008-03-04T12:51:32  <rsinger> so -4
2008-03-04T12:51:59  <miker_> you're right, -4
2008-03-04T12:52:05  <miker_> now is -5
2008-03-04T12:52:19  * rsinger nods.
2008-03-04T12:53:00  <rsinger> that still doesn't explain berick's result
2008-03-04T12:53:19  <miker_> berick: do you have up-to-date ZIC files?
2008-03-04T12:53:56  <berick> i was just wondering if there was something up with my desktop
2008-03-04T12:54:08  <berick> but, taken at face value, that still seems freaky
2008-03-04T12:54:13  <miker_> yeah
2008-03-04T12:54:15  <miker_> it does
2008-03-04T12:55:19  <rsinger> is 00:00:00 a valid time?
2008-03-04T12:55:20  <miker_> berick: what timezone is your desktop in?
2008-03-04T12:55:30  <miker_> rsinger: yeah, that's midnight
2008-03-04T12:55:42  <rsinger> miker_: well, that's what i thought
2008-03-04T12:55:51  <berick> Tue Mar  4 12:55:49 EST 2008
2008-03-04T12:56:06  <miker_> hrm
2008-03-04T12:57:10  <berick> i think this date lib might just be busted
2008-03-04T12:58:18  <rsinger> eesh, DST starts next week
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2008-03-04T12:58:45  <miker_> berick: mind running:
2008-03-04T12:58:53  <miker_> zdump -z EST5EDT
2008-03-04T12:58:55  <miker_> er
2008-03-04T12:58:59  <miker_> zdump -z EST5EDT|grep 2008
2008-03-04T12:59:46  <berick> didn't like '-z' .. run it without:
2008-03-04T12:59:47  <berick> zdump EST5EDT
2008-03-04T12:59:47  <berick> EST5EDT  Tue Mar  4 12:59:38 2008 EST
2008-03-04T12:59:57  <miker_> sorry, -v
2008-03-04T13:00:44  <lisppaste6> berick pasted "zdump" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/56801
2008-03-04T13:01:16  <miker_> anyway, I bet it's using the current offset to shift the time for some reason
2008-03-04T13:01:23  <miker_> that would explain it, I think
2008-03-04T13:01:26  <berick> yeah
2008-03-04T13:01:43  <berick> i'm gonna track down a dojo example, see how it behaves
2008-03-04T13:01:53  <miker_> "get UTC, subtract current offset, tack on date specific zone info"
2008-03-04T13:02:01  <miker_> to which I say boo
2008-03-04T13:04:29  <rsinger> maybe it's trying to tell you that there will be unpredictability by messing around with the future
2008-03-04T13:05:08  <berick> rsinger: haha.. progromatic grandfather paradox
2008-03-04T13:05:24  <rsinger> berick: exactly!
2008-03-04T13:05:44  <rsinger> berick: javascript is sparing you and your family the pain
2008-03-04T13:06:19  <berick> thanks, javascript!
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2008-03-04T13:17:26  <miker_> dbs: where does facbackopac live?
2008-03-04T13:17:44  <dbs> fac-back-opac.googlecode.com I think
2008-03-04T13:19:25  <miker_> thanks
2008-03-04T13:26:08  <berick> ok, looks like dojo requires the 'T' separator and HH:MM on the timezone, so we'll need to add some pre-parse mangling to use dojo, but at least it's parsing the dates right ;)
2008-03-04T13:26:34  <dbs> yay dojo
2008-03-04T13:27:06  <berick> oh wait, no, it doesn't require HH:MM, just the T
2008-03-04T13:27:12  <berick> ok, that's easy enough to deal with
2008-03-04T13:28:01  <berick> take it back yet again, it does require HH:MM.  getting odd results without it
2008-03-04T13:29:06  <berick> do we want to start (slowly) working dojo into 1.2.2?
2008-03-04T13:29:39  <dbs> slowly rip out jscalendar and replace with dojo?
2008-03-04T13:29:58  <berick> jscalendar and DP_DateExtensions.js
2008-03-04T13:30:07  <dbs> will that hurt like a band-aid?
2008-03-04T13:31:03  <berick> yeah, but we can't tear if fully off in 1.2.2
2008-03-04T13:31:11  <berick> if we even want to start in 1.2.2
2008-03-04T13:31:24  <berick> it will slow things down, so i'm inclined to say no
2008-03-04T13:31:33  <berick> but, i need some way to fix the date problems with hold suspension
2008-03-04T13:34:40  <miker_> berick: yeah, I've noticed the T requirement before. which is lame. but if you know you're parsing a date at least it's a simple regex
2008-03-04T14:44:12  <greg-g> hey all, quick question...  about how many paid programmers work on evergreen at least part time?  guesstimate is completely fine with me.
2008-03-04T14:45:56  <greg-g> I'm just going to be referencing Evergreen in a presenation with a comment like "look what they are doing with X people, think what will happen after Michigan starts using it etc"
2008-03-04T14:46:03  <dbs> 5, if you count me?
2008-03-04T14:46:48  <greg-g> dbs: definitely counting you.  you are allowed a percentage of your time at work to work on evergreen right?
2008-03-04T14:46:49  <dbs> berick, djfiander, miker_, phasefx, and me - i think that's it
2008-03-04T14:46:54  <dbs> greg-g: indeed
2008-03-04T14:47:16  <greg-g> cool, I guess I never really realized it was that few.
2008-03-04T14:48:06  <greg-g> and a couple of them work for, umm, that hosting/support provider right?
2008-03-04T14:48:16  <miker_> haha
2008-03-04T14:48:35  <miker_> Equinox Software? yes.  Me, berick and phasefx
2008-03-04T14:48:53  <greg-g> thats it :)
2008-03-04T14:58:08  <greg-g> thanks for the quick answer, btw
2008-03-04T14:58:20  <greg-g> answers
2008-03-04T15:01:19  <miker_> greg-g: we're looking to hire ~3 more developers in short order, jfyi
2008-03-04T15:01:27  <miker_> we == ESI
2008-03-04T15:01:37  <miker_> ESI == Equinox Software, Inc
2008-03-04T15:04:26  <jeff> did somebody say "Michigan"? :)
2008-03-04T15:10:42  <greg-g> I did... I'm going to the School of Information at the UofM
2008-03-04T15:11:03  <greg-g> "going to" == "currently in my second semester"
2008-03-04T15:11:55  <greg-g> miker_: awesome!
2008-03-04T15:12:06  <jeff> greg-g: great!
2008-03-04T15:12:16  <bradl> don't forget McKeller
2008-03-04T15:12:24  <bradl> or Murph
2008-03-04T15:12:56  <dbs> bradl: Mckellar isn't paid
2008-03-04T15:13:23  <dbs> and is Murph programming yet?
2008-03-04T15:13:39  <miker_> dbs: just starting ... no patches yet
2008-03-04T15:13:41  <dbs> (I know she can & wants to - just not sure if she is yet)
2008-03-04T15:14:42  <bradl> I think it's safe to include Murph
2008-03-04T15:16:03  <greg-g> I'll go with "about 5 developers"
2008-03-04T15:16:14  <greg-g> but growing every day! ;)
2008-03-04T15:21:27  <greg-g> miker_: I sent an email to our career services people about the positions.  I tend to be the person forwarding on the Open Souce jobs to the list.
2008-03-04T15:22:22  <miker_> greg-g: nice! thanks
2008-03-04T15:22:42  <greg-g> no problem, I like to show the masses that there are jobs in OSS ;)
2008-03-04T15:24:24  <miker_> indeed
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2008-03-04T16:09:48  <greg-g> I'm not going to be able to easily find information on the cost of ILS systems it seems.  2 calls to Ex Libris were less than fruitfull
2008-03-04T16:10:37  <dbs> greg-g: sirsidynix gave me some useful quotes
2008-03-04T16:13:58  <greg-g> hard to make the cost argument when you don't have numbers, oh well.
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2008-03-04T19:06:16  <dbs> hah, date math fixes in dojo 1.0.2
2008-03-04T19:10:00  <miker_> dbs: gooood
2008-03-04T19:10:11  <miker_> for the thing berick was seeing?
2008-03-04T19:19:08  <berick> actually, dojo was working fine for me.  it's the other iso8601 lib (the currently used one) that's busted
2008-03-04T19:21:18  <miker_> just dojo insists on a T separator instead of a space...
2008-03-04T19:22:05  <berick> that and HH:MM timezones
2008-03-04T19:22:19  <djfiander> well, if it's a single date/time, then the standard says there's a T separator
2008-03-04T19:22:35  <djfiander> <date> <time> is two different fields, not a single spec.
2008-03-04T19:30:03  <berick> wth, iso.org has a store?
2008-03-04T19:30:22  <greg-g> you can not directly get standards from ISO without paying for them
2008-03-04T19:30:55  <berick> i was not expecting that ;)
2008-03-04T19:31:52  <djfiander> actually, there's a link to a copy of the std at the bottom of the wikipedia page.
2008-03-04T19:32:09  <djfiander> it's very odd.  It looks like the standards development website left it out in the open.
2008-03-04T19:35:03  <dbs> ISO is evvvvvil
2008-03-04T19:35:10  <dbs> ISO/ANSI
2008-03-04T19:36:31  <berick> finally found it, ok, the T is optional "the [T] may be omitted in applications where there is no risk of confusing a date and time .. blah, blah.."
2008-03-04T19:37:11  <berick> the timezone minutes are optional as well
2008-03-04T19:38:50  <djfiander> berick: Unless you live in Newfoundland
2008-03-04T19:39:23  <berick> heh
2008-03-04T19:39:49  <berick> "but we don't talk about Newfoundland"
2008-03-04T19:45:46  <djfiander> so, when will the new datastructures be implemented?
2008-03-04T19:48:21  <berick> i'll have to defer to miker_  on that question
2008-03-04T19:48:32  <dbs> djfiander: just fake it, man
2008-03-04T19:48:43  <berick> yeah, dude
2008-03-04T19:48:44  <djfiander> dbs: I plan on doing so
2008-03-04T19:49:13  <dbs> it'll surprise everyone when it goes into production :)
2008-03-04T19:49:51  <djfiander> Y'all know that I was calling stuff JUBs to avoid your internal baggage about what a picklist_entry and a po_lineitem were, eh?
2008-03-04T19:50:02  * djfiander now fears that that's what they'll actually be called
2008-03-04T19:50:03  <dbs> I had no idea what a JUB was
2008-03-04T19:50:12  <djfiander> Jacked-Up Bibrecord
2008-03-04T19:50:16  <dbs> ahhh
2008-03-04T19:50:31  <berick> djfiander: you must realize by now that it will probably stick ;)
2008-03-04T19:50:32  <djfiander> it was the term I invented when we chatting yesterday afternoon here.
2008-03-04T19:50:43  <djfiander> berick: as long as I get credit ;-)
2008-03-04T19:50:43  <dbs> i recall the full term, not the acronym
2008-03-04T19:50:49  <berick> djfiander++
2008-03-04T19:50:51  <dbs> time to put amber to sleep
2008-03-04T19:53:50  * berick heads to the store
2008-03-04T20:16:34  <miker_> djfiander: the table won't be called jub, but the class hint will be :)
2008-03-04T20:16:43  <djfiander> heh
2008-03-04T20:18:03  <miker_> I need to look closely, but I think I'll just remove picklist_entry, rename po_lineitem to lineitem, and give lineitem a new picklist field.
2008-03-04T20:18:26  <djfiander> miker_: sounds good
2008-03-04T20:18:38  <miker_> I've been working on SRU and staged searching so far today, but I can do the acq rejiggering tonight
2008-03-04T20:18:50  <miker_> I just need to run to the store first
2008-03-04T20:19:02  <djfiander> of course, once you've done that the interfaces will all break, but that's my job
2008-03-04T20:19:02  <miker_> djfiander: you're on the commit lists?
2008-03-04T20:19:07  <miker_> :)
2008-03-04T20:19:28  <djfiander> miker_: commit lists? I can commit, but I'm not subscribed to get updates.
2008-03-04T20:19:46  <dbs> miker_: planning to meet up with berick or something?
2008-03-04T20:19:49  * djfiander wonders what attraction the Atlantan stores have at this time of night
2008-03-04T20:19:49  <miker_> ah ... ok, well, I was going to say "you'll see the commits" ... but you won't
2008-03-04T20:20:06  <miker_> djfiander: bread
2008-03-04T20:20:22  <miker_> dbs: eh?
2008-03-04T20:20:31  <miker_> oh, he ran out oo
2008-03-04T20:20:33  <miker_> too
2008-03-04T20:20:33  <dbs> djfiander: http://open-ils.org/listserv.php near the bottom
2008-03-04T20:20:39  <djfiander> dbs: danke
2008-03-04T20:22:14  <djfiander> I like how after I submit the form, I am told "Wait for further instructions"
2008-03-04T20:22:41  <miker_> heh
2008-03-04T20:23:15  <miker_> djfiander: any objection to my dropping the entire acq schema?  it's just easier to change the db with a larger hammer
2008-03-04T20:23:25  <djfiander> I'm not using it.
2008-03-04T20:23:33  <miker_> k
2008-03-04T20:23:48  <djfiander> should I subscribe to both lists, or just open-ils?
2008-03-04T20:24:04  <dbs> open-ils, you won't care about opensrf
2008-03-04T20:24:13  <miker_> berick: when you return, I plan to drop and reload the acq schema with the discussed changes ... scream now and all that
2008-03-04T20:24:20  <djfiander> dbs: that's what I figured
2008-03-04T20:24:31  <djfiander> "scream now, when you return after it's all done"
2008-03-04T20:25:09  <miker_> heh ... nah, I'll wait for /some/ response ... doesn't mean I'll /honor/ it
2008-03-04T20:25:12  <miker_> biab
2008-03-04T20:26:23  <djfiander> time for me to start learning ajax :)
2008-03-04T20:27:28  <dbs> berick: http://wiki.zope.org/gsoc/SummerOfCode2008 for how another organization does it
2008-03-04T20:32:35  <miker_> djfiander: luckily, there's a nice set of OpenSRF wrappers for that.  the API is very similar to the python API
2008-03-04T20:32:43  <miker_> now I'm really going
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2008-03-04T20:45:11  <berick> miker_: destroy at will
2008-03-04T20:45:21  <berick> dbs: nice, thanks
2008-03-04T20:45:44  <dbs> yeah, not much overhead at all (at least for getting proposals out there)
2008-03-04T20:52:57  <berick> dbs: yep.  just need to flesh out some more project ideas and plop them into the wiki
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2008-03-04T21:15:55  <djfiander> miker_: are picklists still going to have an "entry_count", or will that become an "item_count"?
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2008-03-04T21:32:21  <miker_> sorry, got booted
2008-03-04T21:32:23  <miker_> so... status field ... I'll add one
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2008-03-04T21:34:49  <bradl> gotta love netsplits
2008-03-04T21:35:04  <miker_> I think anthony is just D E D ded
2008-03-04T21:35:10  <bradl> haha
2008-03-04T21:36:06  <bradl> All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire
2008-03-04T21:36:13  <bradl> ahhhhhhhh
2008-03-04T21:36:21  <bradl> at least that's how it felt ;)
2008-03-04T21:36:25  <miker_> heh
2008-03-04T21:36:39  <djfiander> miker_: are picklists still going to have an "entry_count", or will that become an "item_count"?
2008-03-04T21:36:40  <miker_> and here we sit
2008-03-04T21:36:43  <djfiander> and so on
2008-03-04T21:36:50  <miker_> yeah, item_count
2008-03-04T21:37:05  <miker_> wait...
2008-03-04T21:37:37  <djfiander> and a list of "items" instead of a list of "entries"
2008-03-04T21:37:38  <miker_> the entry_count is a virtual field on picklist, I think
2008-03-04T21:37:49  * berick was thinking "order_count" .. on the JUBs
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2008-03-04T21:38:04  <djfiander> I don't care if it's virtual or not, I just want to know what it's called
2008-03-04T21:38:05  <miker_> I wasn't going to touch the picklist table or IDL
2008-03-04T21:38:08  <miker_> k
2008-03-04T21:38:48  <djfiander> miker_: except that you're eliminating "picklist_entry", so "picklist" has to have something else in it: the lineitems
2008-03-04T21:38:50  <berick> djfiander: are you talking about how many items are in a picklist or how many copies of a particular item to purchase?
2008-03-04T21:38:55  <miker_> I was looking at the new lineitem table, which will have item_count ... that's "how many should be ordered" and will translate to lineitem_detail records
2008-03-04T21:39:21  <miker_> djfiander: correct. I can change entry_count to lineitem_count if you like
2008-03-04T21:40:00  <miker_> ok ... I'll summarize:
2008-03-04T21:40:14  <djfiander> berick: items in a picklist, I think. In general, we don't care about how many total copies in a list... just copies of each title
2008-03-04T21:40:47  <berick> djfiander: ok, i was having a different conversation.. all by myself ;)
2008-03-04T21:40:53  <miker_> picklist will still have a (virtual) field which is the count of lineitem records
2008-03-04T21:40:53  <djfiander> heh
2008-03-04T21:41:31  <djfiander> new evergreen team photo: http://flickr.com/photos/bookgeek/2311702868/
2008-03-04T21:41:33  <miker_> lineitems will in turn have an item_count field, which is a real field and is the number to order of that particular JUB
2008-03-04T21:41:47  <berick> djfiander++ hahaaa
2008-03-04T21:41:51  <miker_>  BWAHAHAHA
2008-03-04T21:42:11  <djfiander> not my high-tech laptop stand
2008-03-04T21:42:13  <djfiander> note
2008-03-04T21:42:27  <djfiander> miker_: that's all good.
2008-03-04T21:42:54  <miker_> gooood
2008-03-04T21:43:23  <djfiander> so, for a bunch of the interfaces, I don't actually have to change much at all right now
2008-03-04T21:43:39  <djfiander> (except it all needs to be ripped out to support the model I described in my email)
2008-03-04T21:43:47  <miker_> so, if the acq.lineitem.item_count says 10, that does not mean there are already 10 acq.lineitem_detail rows that point to the lineitem in question
2008-03-04T21:43:55  <miker_> just that that's what's requested
2008-03-04T21:44:22  <miker_> yeah ... some class name changes and access to more fields
2008-03-04T21:44:30  <miker_> but it shouldn't be too bad
2008-03-04T21:44:55  <djfiander> miker_: Hmm... I think it will have 10 detail rows pretty fast, since we'll need to set fund, locn, provider, etc. during the (pre-approval) selection process.
2008-03-04T21:45:07  <djfiander> but it might not right away
2008-03-04T21:45:13  <miker_> sure
2008-03-04T21:45:47  <miker_> but that's all interface ... the thing is just to record the actual request count somewhere, I think
2008-03-04T21:47:37  <miker_> also, the list_price field is going away ... there's an attr that magically gets set from 02x$c
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2008-03-04T21:49:02  <miker_> bye bye leguin
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2008-03-04T21:51:21  <djfiander> wtf
2008-03-04T21:52:20  <miker_> berick: on the JUB (lineitem), we'll need an org unit ... I'm adding an ordering_agency field that points to actor.org_unit.id and shoudl be filled in by the ws_ou of the "approver" .. I think. then the "orderer" will use that as a context in order to gather the "approved" JUBs that he has access to
2008-03-04T21:52:31  <miker_> \whois djfiander
2008-03-04T21:52:34  <miker_> ha
2008-03-04T21:52:51  <djfiander> internet suckage abounds tonight
2008-03-04T21:52:58  <miker_> indeed
2008-03-04T21:53:14  <miker_> djfiander: did that thing I just said make sense to you?
2008-03-04T21:53:35  <djfiander> miker_: I was just digesting it.  I think so.
2008-03-04T21:53:46  <miker_> ws_ou == workstation org unit ... where they registered their staff client
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2008-03-04T21:54:29  <djfiander> *think*
2008-03-04T21:55:12  <dbs> terminology question: is the "approver" the librarian selecting the books to buy?
2008-03-04T21:55:40  <djfiander> dbs: yup
2008-03-04T21:56:14  <djfiander> if the approver is in a branch, and the purchaser is central, that needs to work
2008-03-04T21:56:39  <djfiander> dbs: "approver" == "selector" == "coll'n librarian"
2008-03-04T21:56:41  <dbs> Is the approver limited to ordering for only the ou of their ws_ou?
2008-03-04T21:57:01  <djfiander> dbs: I think that needs to be local option
2008-03-04T21:57:11  <djfiander> branch funding means "yes".
2008-03-04T21:57:19  <djfiander> central purchasing, maybe not.
2008-03-04T21:57:22  <miker_> djfiander: the purchaser would have the perm at a higher level, so they could see all JUBs at branches
2008-03-04T21:57:23  <berick> i'm trying to think of the exact criteria that defines "my list of stuff to go through and purchase"
2008-03-04T21:57:46  <djfiander> miker_: perfect
2008-03-04T21:58:04  <djfiander> berick: don't overthink it. Right now I'm assuming that lists just magically appear.
2008-03-04T21:58:13  <miker_> berick: "stuff in state X (approved?) that has an ordering_agency that is at my highest_perm_org for PURCHASE_STUFF, or deeper"
2008-03-04T21:58:25  <djfiander> oops.
2008-03-04T21:58:31  <djfiander> yes, berick, think about that.
2008-03-04T21:58:53  <djfiander> I was thinking "order as in select", not purchasing dept.
2008-03-04T22:00:14  <miker_> as for "go through and order," I assume that the purchaser does not care about the thing, just the title/isbn and the copy distribution, etc
2008-03-04T22:00:35  <miker_> just the title/isbn for finding it at a provider, I mean, not the actual title
2008-03-04T22:00:41  <miker_> just as a matchpoint
2008-03-04T22:01:06  <djfiander> miker_: yes, but we need to create the list of things to purchase from the pool of "approved" JUBs
2008-03-04T22:01:21  <miker_> ok
2008-03-04T22:01:34  <djfiander> and that's what berick's thinking about
2008-03-04T22:01:36  <berick> miker_: well, i'm thinking of orderging_agancy in particular and wondering if that's the right approach.
2008-03-04T22:01:48  <miker_> so, is that "put check boxes next to them and click the Create POs button" ?
2008-03-04T22:01:49  <djfiander> heh
2008-03-04T22:02:07  <miker_> berick: the name of the field?
2008-03-04T22:02:24  <miker_> selecting_agency ?
2008-03-04T22:02:54  <miker_> hrm, wait
2008-03-04T22:02:58  <djfiander> miker_: the HCPL system we saw in the conf call just bangs out POs by selecting all the items with the same provider and chunking them into 50 items per PO
2008-03-04T22:02:59  <berick> no, the purpose it serves.  where I'm logged in when I hit the "buy me these button" feels like a less than perfect source for that information
2008-03-04T22:03:09  <berick> but i can't think if anything better right now ;)
2008-03-04T22:03:17  <miker_> djfiander: sure
2008-03-04T22:03:42  <djfiander> berick: can the system support me logging in from home to do this work?
2008-03-04T22:04:04  <djfiander> he asks, focused on the "where I'm logged in" thing
2008-03-04T22:04:12  <miker_> djfiander: I though you wanted to let the purchaser inspect them before, which they can ... but "purchase approved JUBs for provider X" is easy
2008-03-04T22:04:26  <miker_> djfiander: yes it can
2008-03-04T22:04:50  <miker_> djfiander: you just register your workstation for a branch or whatever ... it's not IP restricted
2008-03-04T22:05:04  <djfiander> miker_: it depends. there should probably be an interface to pull up the approved but incomplete JUBs.
2008-03-04T22:05:10  <miker_> but you have to have the perms to do that registering
2008-03-04T22:05:59  <djfiander> for example, a selector can't approve an item unless she has assigned a fund to it, but she can approve one without a provider.
2008-03-04T22:06:35  <miker_> sure, but again, if the JUBs have a state field (the will now) and a provider, and a selecting or ordering or whatever agency, then that's just "show me the approved but incomplete JUB counts by provider", with an option to expand them
2008-03-04T22:06:37  <djfiander> so, if the information in the JUB is incomplete, then acq staff will have to go and figure stuff out before the order can really be placed.
2008-03-04T22:07:14  <djfiander> miker_: right, but if everything's complete, then just parcel it up into a PO and go to town.
2008-03-04T22:07:14  <miker_> with a "has no provider" catch-all
2008-03-04T22:07:18  <miker_> right
2008-03-04T22:08:34  <djfiander> I can see some acq managers wanting to start with a workflow that includes double checking everything before creating POs, and then reviewing the POs before they're sent as well.
2008-03-04T22:09:19  <miker_> indeed
2008-03-04T22:09:28  <miker_> esp at small pubs
2008-03-04T22:09:42  <miker_> no budget and small orders
2008-03-04T22:09:57  <djfiander> often placed on a credit card via amazon
2008-03-04T22:10:01  <miker_> ok ... so, back to the ordering agency thing
2008-03-04T22:10:35  <miker_> that goes on the PO and is filled by the ws_ou of the purchaser
2008-03-04T22:10:50  <djfiander> yes
2008-03-04T22:10:53  <djfiander> probably
2008-03-04T22:10:54  <miker_> then, on JUBs (lineitems) there's an owner field
2008-03-04T22:11:10  <miker_> which is what points to the ws_ou of the selector/approver
2008-03-04T22:11:22  <djfiander> yes.
2008-03-04T22:11:28  <miker_> berick?
2008-03-04T22:11:57  <djfiander> that does preclude Bob jumping in and saying, "Oh, I want one of those too", for an item that Jane is already working on, but I don't think that's a bigbig problem
2008-03-04T22:12:19  <miker_> the owner field on the PO points to the actual user that created the PO
2008-03-04T22:12:48  <berick> so, POs have an owner and an ordering_agency?
2008-03-04T22:13:38  <miker_> berick: currently, yeah
2008-03-04T22:14:43  <miker_> djfiander: well, I don't think so, as long as Bob has JUB_EDIT permissions (or whatever) at the JUB owner (org_unit)
2008-03-04T22:15:25  <djfiander> miker_: hmmm...
2008-03-04T22:16:12  <djfiander> back to the branch level selecting, central purchasing model: it would be nice if Bob could just add a detail to a preexisting JUB, even if it was created at a diff. branch.
2008-03-04T22:17:11  <berick> ok, are we still talking about ordering picklists (as a whole) instead of ordering mixed sets of JUBs?
2008-03-04T22:17:21  <miker_> berick: JUBS
2008-03-04T22:17:25  <djfiander> berick: I'm thinking mixed sets
2008-03-04T22:17:29  <berick> ok, cool
2008-03-04T22:18:09  <berick> in that case, would it make more sense to store the ordering agency on the JUB instead of the PO?
2008-03-04T22:18:38  <miker_> djfiander: there can be a CREATE_LINEITEM_DETAIL perm that /only/ allows adjusting the item_count (magically, inside of the add_lineitem_detail method) and adding lineitem_details
2008-03-04T22:18:54  <berick> IOW, PO has an owner (who created the PO) and JUBs have an ordering agency to define who has to deal with them
2008-03-04T22:19:12  <miker_> berick: the PO is the order
2008-03-04T22:19:26  <miker_> in my mind
2008-03-04T22:19:28  <djfiander> miker_: ok, that'll work. and Bob can only add details associated with an ou he lives at.
2008-03-04T22:19:30  <berick> good point... 'requesting agancy' ?
2008-03-04T22:20:06  <djfiander> I'm thinking that the ordering agency is also the recieving agency
2008-03-04T22:20:06  <miker_> berick: I can call it whatever we like ... owner makes sense to me, but requesting_agency is fine too...
2008-03-04T22:20:17  <berick> i'm just trying to solve the problem of how do we find the set of JUBs that a purchaser should go through
2008-03-04T22:20:27  <miker_> djfiander: right ... he who creates the PO receives the items
2008-03-04T22:21:15  <miker_> berick: isn't it "show me the JUBs (that are in the right state) that have an owner (an org unit) that is within my ranged ORDER_FROM_JUBS perm" ??
2008-03-04T22:21:36  <miker_> (show me the JUBs or some summary thereof)
2008-03-04T22:22:11  <djfiander> or just an owner lower in the hierarchy that me?
2008-03-04T22:22:19  <djfiander> (org hierarchy)
2008-03-04T22:22:40  <djfiander> of course, I have no idea how the OU perms stuff works :)
2008-03-04T22:22:42  <miker_> djfiander: that's effectivly what I'm saying, in evergreen-permission-speak
2008-03-04T22:24:13  <berick> miker_: that makes sense.  i think i'm just being dense
2008-03-04T22:25:05  <miker_> ok ... so, before I go too much further, shall I change the name of acq.lineitem.owner->actor.org_unit to something else?
2008-03-04T22:25:12  <djfiander> berick: good to know I'm not alone ;-)
2008-03-04T22:26:41  <djfiander> from dbs's comment, it might be better to call the owner the 'selector'. that's normal terminology for colln libn
2008-03-04T22:26:52  <miker_> will do
2008-03-04T22:27:22  <djfiander> not that collection librarians will be reading the code, but owner is a bit vague :)
2008-03-04T22:27:40  <miker_> sure
2008-03-04T22:34:58  <miker_> now ... picklists
2008-03-04T22:35:11  <miker_> the owner on those ... org_units or users
2008-03-04T22:36:02  <miker_> I still think of picklists as user objects ...
2008-03-04T22:36:20  <miker_> and the JUBs carry the selector org unit
2008-03-04T22:36:54  <berick> i agree.  org-based picklists seem too broad
2008-03-04T22:37:31  <miker_> I think of picklists as pre-approval buckets for users to manage
2008-03-04T22:37:50  <djfiander> yes, picklists will mostly be things that selectors manage indivdually
2008-03-04T22:37:51  <miker_> after approval, anyone with perms can glom onto the lineitems
2008-03-04T22:38:19  <miker_> ok ... good
2008-03-04T22:40:09  <miker_> so, assuming we allow jubs to be approved without funds attached, there's still a need for POs to have a default fund, which gets spread out at PO creation time to un-funded copies
2008-03-04T22:40:25  <miker_> it's nullable, not required
2008-03-04T22:41:02  <djfiander> Selectors are responsible for funds. a detail record has to have a fund before it can be approved.
2008-03-04T22:41:34  <djfiander> now, the UI might have expose a default fund, but that would propagate down to details at creation time.
2008-03-04T22:42:13  <miker_> djfiander: I'm imagining a single person doing all of it, and just picking the fund at PO creation time that propogates down instead of having to pick funds for copies
2008-03-04T22:42:37  <miker_> as a shortcut for those types of workflows
2008-03-04T22:43:15  <djfiander> I think it still makes more sense for that default fund to be attached to the picklist... and pushed down at approval?
2008-03-04T22:43:38  <berick> arg, gotta go.  family guests are going to bed (er, couch) a few feet away
2008-03-04T22:43:48  <djfiander> it is more likely that everything on a picklist will be from the same fund than everything on the same PO will be from the same fund
2008-03-04T22:43:49  <miker_> berick: laterz
2008-03-04T22:44:41  <miker_> djfiander: I'm leaning towards your UI idea, no need to record it
2008-03-04T22:45:04  <djfiander> see... just do what I say and everything will be fine ;-)
2008-03-04T22:45:31  <miker_> ha
2008-03-04T22:52:19  <djfiander> miker_: could you make the default fund an attribute of the user... a profile setting?
2008-03-04T22:52:35  <djfiander> eg. I am the CS librarian. most of my books will be on the CS fund.
2008-03-04T22:53:23  <djfiander> ok, bedtime for me
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2008-03-04T22:59:26  *** greg_g is now known as greg-g
2008-03-04T23:00:36  <dbs> hmm, well - many of us select for multiple funds... maybe most recently used fund is sticky
2008-03-04T23:00:59  <dbs> (and if you only select for one fund, then it's like a profile setting)
2008-03-04T23:01:37  <miker_> we talked about that before ... sticky via usr_setting I think was what we came up with
2008-03-04T23:01:58  <miker_> so that it is sticky across sessions
2008-03-04T23:03:09  <dbs> yeah
2008-03-04T23:03:26  <dbs> I knew something was tickling the back of my skull
2008-03-04T23:03:35  <miker_> indeed
2008-03-04T23:05:32  <miker_> ok ... schema updated, IDL matches
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